God SWORE an oath to save ALL of mankind! [Archive]

Israel

05-02-2012, 05:12 PM

Every knee shall bow. But that does not mean that the confession that follows will be one of saving faith. A person who jumps off the Golden Gate bridge has to "confess" that gravity is an unbreakable law of nature...but the confession will not save him from death. Or when a conquering force overwhelms a country, the conquered leaders will "bow" to their captors and even "confess" the military superiority of their conquerors, but that does not mean that their hearts have been changed.

BTW, I just realized where this was posted. Universalism does not fall under the forum's statement of faith, therefore this topic is not permitted in this subforum.

If every knee bows to the GLORY of God, this is then evident that it is not forced. No man can say that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 25:34-40

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

THIS is how confession is made.

I am but a man and do not have much. But with all I have (through my gains of obeying the law), I have given ALL I have to the to the poor (those who by righteousness of the law have little). I give to the poor. I feed the hungry. I visit them in prison.

The man who jumped or fell to his death is as certain as the man who quietly dies in his sleep. Death is certain for us all!

Romans 7:1-7

1Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

RoyS

05-02-2012, 06:08 PM

If every knee bows to the GLORY of God, this is then evident that it is not forced. No man can say that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit.

Hogwash. Satan knows and acknowledges that Jesus is Lord. Does he have the Holy Spirit?

Benjie

05-02-2012, 06:50 PM

If every knee bows to the GLORY of God, this is then evident that it is not forced. No man can say that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit.You wouldn't happen to have any scriptural support for that, would you?

I didn't think so . . .

Israel

05-02-2012, 07:32 PM

Hogwash. Satan knows and acknowledges that Jesus is Lord. Does he have the Holy Spirit?

1 Corinthians 12:3

3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 15:5-9

5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

1 Corinthians 12:3

3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 15:5-9

5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Alex Smith

05-02-2012, 08:42 PM

Universalism does not fall under the forum's statement of faith
In order to post in the Christian discussion section, a person must be in agreement with the statement of faith (SoF).

Statement of Faith

CWS STATEMENT of FAITH:

* The Holy Scriptures, in its original form, is the inerrant Word of God.

* There is only one God. He exists as and reveals Himself to man as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in what is commonly called "the Trinity".

* Man is separated from God due to sin.

* God's Son, Jesus Christ, was born of the virgin Mary, died on the cross for man's sins, and rose again on the third day.

* Man can only be saved by repenting of sin, and by faith, receiving Jesus Christ as his or her Lord and Savior. This salvation is provided by the grace of God. Man cannot be saved through his own efforts or works.

The SOF is not meant to determine a person's Christianity, but is rather a simple measuring stick to identify some key beliefs for the purpose of fellowship.I was just wondering which part of this SOF (that I uphold) is incompatible with Christian Universalism (I assume that's what Israel is raising here...)? :confused:

RoyS

05-02-2012, 09:11 PM

I was just wondering which part of this SOF (that I uphold) is incompatible with Christian Universalism (I assume that's what Israel is raising here...)? :confused:

* Man can only be saved by repenting of sin, and by faith, receiving Jesus Christ as his or her Lord and Savior. This salvation is provided by the grace of God. Man cannot be saved through his own efforts or works.
If someone does not repent, and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, they are not saved. Not all people will be saved, as the Universalists believe.

Alex Smith

05-02-2012, 11:54 PM

If someone does not repent, and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, they are not saved.I totally agree, and as far as I know, that's what Christian Universalists believe. I see nothing in the SOF, or the Bible, that restricts repentance to one's life on earth... even the commonly quoted Heb 9:27 only establishes that we will die & face Judgement (things CUs affirm).

And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Whilst the New Testament emphasis is on repenting & believing now, the possibility of postmortem repentance (& salvation) is orthodox. As far as I can tell most of the Church Fathers, notably Gregory of Nyssa (honoured with the title of "Father of the Fathers" at the 7th ecumenical council), thought it would happend to at least some degree. Even Augustine (in City of God) seems to be allowing for a few to repent postmortem. Also Augustine noted it was common belief in the early church.

So it's not surprising that billions of Catholic & Eastern Orthodox (& even some Protestants) have (& still do) hoped & prayed for it. Possibly of more interest to us Evangelicals is that C.S. Lewis believed some people would (e.g. The Great Divorce, where the man with the lizard of Lust on his shoulder was saved, and the MacD character who assures Lewis that the woman frightened by the unicorns may yet be saved, as he has seen it happen before).

Now you might be wondering why these Christians believe/believed in the possibility of postmortem repentance (& salvation). Well historically (I'm not saying I believe these are watertight) passages like 1Cor 3:15, 1Pet 3:19, Eph 4:8-9, Isa 25, Matt, 1Cor 15:28 (Gregory of Nyssa), Mat 12:32 (Augustine) have been used, as has the concept that Jesus' postmortem triumph over & out of Hell (admittedly this is a particularly tricky one as it depends on whether Jesus was raised from the dead by the Father, or rose from the dead by His own power, or both!). I should add that interpreting passages like
“Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return:

‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.’as implying everyone will one day be in allegiance with God, implicitly suggests postmortem repentance (& salvation) must occur before this prophesy can be fulfilled.

Does Christ deserve to have everyone freely, lovingly, worshiping Him? That is, with 100% of mind, body & spirit.

Titus

05-03-2012, 12:11 AM

RoyS

05-03-2012, 12:42 AM

I totally agree, and as far as I know, that's what Christian Universalists believe. I see nothing in the SOF, or the Bible, that restricts repentance to one's life on earth... even the commonly quoted Heb 9:27 only establishes that we will die & face Judgement (things CUs affirm).

Whilst the New Testament emphasis is on repenting & believing now, the possibility of postmortem repentance (& salvation) is orthodox. As far as I can tell most of the Church Fathers, notably Gregory of Nyssa (honoured with the title of "Father of the Fathers" at the 7th ecumenical council), thought it would happend to at least some degree. Even Augustine (in City of God) seems to be allowing for a few to repent postmortem. Also Augustine noted it was common belief in the early church.

So it's not surprising that billions of Catholic & Eastern Orthodox (& even some Protestants) have (& still do) hoped & prayed for it. Possibly of more interest to us Evangelicals is that C.S. Lewis believed some people would (e.g. The Great Divorce, where the man with the lizard of Lust on his shoulder was saved, and the MacD character who assures Lewis that the woman frightened by the unicorns may yet be saved, as he has seen it happen before).

Now you might be wondering why these Christians believe/believed in the possibility of postmortem repentance (& salvation). Well historically (I'm not saying I believe these are watertight) passages like 1Cor 3:15, 1Pet 3:19, Eph 4:8-9, Isa 25, Matt, 1Cor 15:28 (Gregory of Nyssa), Mat 12:32 (Augustine) have been used, as has the concept that Jesus' postmortem triumph over & out of Hell (admittedly this is a particularly tricky one as it depends on whether Jesus was raised from the dead by the Father, or rose from the dead by His own power, or both!). I should add that interpreting passages likeas implying everyone will one day be in allegiance with God, implicitly suggests postmortem repentance (& salvation) must occur before this prophesy can be fulfilled.

Does Christ deserve to have everyone freely, lovingly, worshiping Him? That is, with 100% of mind, body & spirit.
The SoF is what it is; and we enforce it as such. Theoretical arguments are not valid here; feel free to take them up with God.

Alex Smith

05-03-2012, 01:43 AM

Hebrews 4:
4 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”

And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.” 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”This appears to be a tricky verse in the Greek (http://biblos.com/hebrews/4-5.htm), as it's also translated more literally:
And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. (Cambridge King James Bible)
And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. (American King James Version)
And in this place again: If they shall enter into my rest. (Douay-Rheims Bible)
and in this again, If they shall enter into my rest. (Darby Bible Translation)
And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. (Webster's Bible Translation)
and in this place again, 'If they shall enter into My rest -- ;' (Young's Literal Translation)
And in this again, "If they shall be entering into My stopping-!" (Concordant Literal Version)

Alex Smith

05-03-2012, 01:50 AM

The SoF is what it is; and we enforce it as such.Dear Roy I agree with your statement of faith. I'm merely pointing out that your Statement of Faith doesn't exclude postmortem repentance (& salvation), therefore it doesn't exclude Christian Universalism. I run my own forum & know the challenges it presents, so I'm definitely not trying to undermine you.

Hansc

05-03-2012, 02:10 AM

Alex, I'm curious, do you also post at Tentmaker? The reason I ask is that last year at Tentmaker we went through a pretty long thread concerning the Book of Life and the bottom line is that once a person gets erased out of the Book of Life there is no way back in, consequently, once a person leaves this world, and enters the next--that's it. Christ died for those in this world, consequently, a person needs to be in this world to have the right to receive Christ, once they leave this world, they no longer have that which is for this world.

RoyS

05-03-2012, 03:08 AM

Dear Roy I agree with your statement of faith. I'm merely pointing out that your Statement of Faith doesn't exclude postmortem repentance (& salvation), therefore it doesn't exclude Christian Universalism. I run my own forum & know the challenges it presents, so I'm definitely not trying to undermine you.
1. I am NOT your 'dear'. Don't ever address me as such again.
2. Dead people cannot gain salvation.
3. Run your forum as you wish, we will run this one as we are led to do.

Alex Smith

05-03-2012, 04:04 AM

Alex, I'm curious, do you also post at Tentmaker?I've read a few things on Tentmaker (although I don't agree with everything there), but I don't think I've ever posted anything.

The reason I ask is that last year at Tentmaker we went through a pretty long thread concerning the Book of LifeSounds interesting - it's good that Christians can discuss these things.

the bottom line is that once a person gets erased out of the Book of Life there is no way back in, consequently, once a person leaves this world, and enters the next--that's it. Christ died for those in this world, consequently, a person needs to be in this world to have the right to receive Christ, once they leave this world, they no longer have that which is for this world.A helpful response to this question is the Appendix 3 of The Evangelical Universalist. The author notes that we agree that:
a) Some people have their names written in the BOL and some people do not
b) Those whose names are written in the BOL enter the new Jerusalem
c) Those whose names are not written in the BOL will not enter the new Jerusalem

So the question becomes: Is the content of the BOL fixed?
a) Rev 3:5 strongly suggests that one could have one’s name removed from the BOL
b) Rev 21:24-26 can be seen as possibly indicating some will be added into the BOL

Rarely are people convinced by only a couple of sentences, but that's ok, I'm just trying to show that Christians throughout history have held various, biblically based, positions on postmortem repentance. As I don't think believing (or not believing) in postmortem repentance is central to Christianity, I'm glad that the Statement of Faith doesn't mention it.

Alex Smith

05-03-2012, 04:18 AM

1. I am NOT your 'dear'. Don't ever address me as such again.Sorry that was not meant to be offensive at all :confused: Brothers & sisters in Christ often address one another this way e.g.
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.How would you like to be addressed?

2. Dead people cannot gain salvation.I agree, it's only after the universal resurrection made possible by Christ's resurrection. After everyone has been brought back to life Christians hold various legitimate positions on what happens next.

3. Run your forum as you wish, we will run this one as we are led to do.I was purely trying to acknowledge that I realise the work you are doing here is hard & I'm not trying to make it harder.

RoyS

05-03-2012, 05:40 AM

How would you like to be addressed?
You may call me Roy.

I agree, it's only after the universal resurrection made possible by Christ's resurrection. After everyone has been brought back to life Christians hold various legitimate positions on what happens next.
Here, we disagree. Hebrews 9:27

I was purely trying to acknowledge that I realise the work you are doing here is hard & I'm not trying to make it harder.
That's fine. It appeared that you were trying to tell us that we shouldn't bar Universalists from posting in the Christian Discussion forum. As I said; you run your forum however you wish; we will run CWS as we are led. Read the Forum Guidelines, and the SoF.

Israel

05-03-2012, 05:10 PM

Psalms 66:1-5

1Make a joyful noise unto God, all ye lands:

2Sing forth the honour of his name: make his praise glorious.

3Say unto God, How terrible art thou in thy works! through the greatness of thy power shall thine enemies submit themselves unto thee.

4All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah.

5Come and see the works of God: he is terrible in his doing toward the children of men.

Israel

05-03-2012, 05:55 PM

You may call me Roy.

Here, we disagree. Hebrews 9:27

That's fine. It appeared that you were trying to tell us that we shouldn't bar Universalists from posting in the Christian Discussion forum. As I said; you run your forum however you wish; we will run CWS as we are led. Read the Forum Guidelines, and the SoF.

It is that very same "statement of faith" doctrines written in stone that He will destroy at His coming.

God is a Spirit.

Deuteronomy 4:15-19

15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:

16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,

18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:

19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

A Spirit has no form and like air, it fills heaven and earth.

Now if I say that all men will be saved,

1 Corinthians 9:18-23

18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

Surely if Paul or I can become all things, then God can too.

Hansc

05-03-2012, 06:51 PM

Israel

It is that very same "statement of faith" doctrines written in stone that He will destroy at His coming.

Really, specifically WHAT in the SOF will Christ destroy?

The belief that He is Lord?

or

maybe that He rose from the dead?

Seriously, think a little about what you are saying.

Israel

05-03-2012, 07:28 PM

Israel

Really, specifically WHAT in the SOF will Christ destroy?

The belief that He is Lord?

or

maybe that He rose from the dead?

Seriously, think a little about what you are saying.

It depends. What part of your SOF does not allow me to post in the christian part of this forum?. What you have mentioned I believe as well.

You don't see a problem with this? You say by this "statement" that Christ is Lord. You say you believe that Jesus is indeed the savior of world and yet by that very same "statement" I am not allowed to post that He WILL save the world!

RoyS

05-03-2012, 07:34 PM

It depends. What part of your SOF does not allow me to post in the christian part of this forum?. What you have mentioned I believe as well.

You don't see a problem with this? You say by this "statement" that Christ is Lord. You say you believe that Jesus is indeed the savior of world and yet by that very same "statement" I am not allowed to post that He WILL save the world!
Asked and answered before. See post #8.

Titus

05-03-2012, 07:47 PM

What does verse 6 say Alex?

Alex Smith

05-03-2012, 08:42 PM

You may call me Roy.No probs, will do.

I agree, it's only after the universal resurrection made possible by Christ's resurrection. After everyone has been brought back to life Christians hold various legitimate positions on what happens next.

Here, we disagree. Hebrews 9:27Sorry Roy please could you clarify which bit of what I wrote you disagree with? e.g. 1st or 2nd sentence?

It appeared that you were trying to tell us that we shouldn't bar Universalists from posting in the Christian Discussion forum.Sorry I didn't mean to come across as trying to tell you what to do. I was just trying to highlight that some Universalists are Christians.

Read the Forum Guidelines, and the SoF.I have read the SoF & the rules when registering. Please post a link to the Forum Guidelines just so that I can make sure I've read them?

RoyS

05-03-2012, 08:50 PM

Sorry Roy please could you clarify which bit of what I wrote you disagree with? e.g. 1st or 2nd sentence?
'Post mortem repentance'.

I have read the SoF & the rules when registering. Please post a link to the Forum Guidelines just so that I can make sure I've read them?

Forum Guidelines and SoF (http://www.christianwebsite.com/forum/showthread.php?164-CWS-Guidelines****-READ-THIS-BEFORE-POSTING!).

Alex Smith

05-03-2012, 09:02 PM

What does verse 6 say Alex?
Since therefore it remains [for] some to enter into it, and the [ones] formerly having received the gospel, not did enter in, on account of disobediencei.e. some people who received the gospel rejected it & therefore didn't enter into God's rest. Sadly I fully expect that many haven't entered into God's rest & still will not on Judgement Day. However, just because someone hasn't, or won't initially, doesn't mean they can ever go beyond the reach of God. I believe God is powerful & loving enough to rescue even hardest hearted sinners (like we ourselves once were).

Alex Smith

05-03-2012, 09:16 PM

'Post mortem repentance'.No probs, just wanted to establish that you didn't hold Conditional Immorality or Annihilationism. I'm genuinely wondering how Hebrews 9:27 excludes postmortem repentance? Please could you expand?

Forum Guidelines and SoF (http://www.christianwebsite.com/forum/showthread.php?164-CWS-Guidelines****-READ-THIS-BEFORE-POSTING!).Thanks, that seems like a more expanded version of the rules I read when registering. However I think your rules are quite reasonable. In fact some of them would be helpful to add to the rules on my own forum :cool:

RoyS

05-03-2012, 09:33 PM

No probs, just wanted to establish that you didn't hold Conditional Immorality or Annihilationism. I'm genuinely wondering how Hebrews 9:27 excludes postmortem repentance? Please could you expand?
Hebrews 9:27

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Not, "but after this a chance to repent". Judgement.

SOTWIncognito

05-03-2012, 09:34 PM

'Post mortem repentance'.

Forum Guidelines and SoF (http://www.christianwebsite.com/forum/showthread.php?164-CWS-Guidelines****-READ-THIS-BEFORE-POSTING!).

* Man can only be saved by repenting of sin, and by faith, receiving Jesus Christ as his or her Lord and Savior. This salvation is provided by the grace of God. Man cannot be saved through his own efforts or works.

Though I don't believe in Post Mortem Repentance (as it is being assumed), nowhere in the SoF does it address Post Morterm Repentance.

Titus

05-03-2012, 09:35 PM

Perhaps the SOF needs to be revised, because post mortem repentance is a lie of satan.

RoyS

05-03-2012, 09:37 PM

* Man can only be saved by repenting of sin, and by faith, receiving Jesus Christ as his or her Lord and Savior. This salvation is provided by the grace of God. Man cannot be saved through his own efforts or works.

Though I don't believe in Post Mortem Repentance (as it is being assumed), nowhere in the SoF does it address Post Morterm Repentance.
No, not specifically, because it is understood that repentance must come before death. Should we expand the SoF to include or preclude every conceivable form of false teaching? I think that would overload our server.

SOTWIncognito

05-03-2012, 10:07 PM

No, not specifically, because it is understood that repentance must come before death. Should we expand the SoF to include or preclude every conceivable form of false teaching? I think that would overload our server.

Well, to be fair, that is what a statement of faith designed for; all creeds were created in order clarify a system of belief differentiating itself from any other belief. I wouldn't want to labour the point any further. I found the response to refer to the particular point in SoF in response to a belief that is considered false teaching, doesn't seem productive if the SoF doesn't actually address this point is all.

For clarity sake,

Take care Roy.

RoyS

05-03-2012, 10:29 PM

Well, to be fair, that is what a statement of faith designed for; all creeds were created in order clarify a system of belief differentiating itself from any other belief. I wouldn't want to labour the point any further. I found the response to refer to the particular point in SoF in response to a belief that is considered false teaching, doesn't seem productive if the SoF doesn't actually address this point is all.

For clarity sake,

Take care Roy.
No, a SoF is to declare the core beliefs of the forum, not to include or preclude every possible variation. The point in question IS addressed, in that
"* Man can only be saved by repenting of sin, and by faith, receiving Jesus Christ as his or her Lord and Savior. This salvation is provided by the grace of God. Man cannot be saved through his own efforts or works."
We can't 'clarify' willful ignorance.

Hansc

05-03-2012, 11:41 PM

Well, to be fair, that is what a statement of faith designed for; all creeds were created in order clarify a system of belief differentiating itself from any other belief. I wouldn't want to labour the point any further. I found the response to refer to the particular point in SoF in response to a belief that is considered false teaching, doesn't seem productive if the SoF doesn't actually address this point is all.

For clarity sake,

Take care Roy.

The CWS forum is not a specific denomination, but cuts across a broad spectrum of Christendom. Although, not specifically spelled out, the clear understanding of repentance is for the here and now.

Alex Smith

05-04-2012, 01:56 AM

Hebrews 9:27

Not, "but after this a chance to repent". Judgement.Thanks, that makes it clearer where you stand. So the question becomes, "What is the purpose of God's Judgement?"

The Bible does talk a fair bit about God's Judgement, so it would take quite some time to go through all the passages that address it. However, I think there's an frequent pattern in the OT of rebellion, judgement & restoration, not only with Israel but with the Nations. e.g. even though Sodom got destroyed, God promises to restore her in Eze 16:53:
“I will restore their fortunes, both the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters, and the fortunes of Samaria and her daughters, and I will restore your own fortunes in their midst,
I think passages like Lam 3:31-33 are also very relevant
For the Lord will not reject us forever. Even if He causes suffering, He will show compassion according to His abundant, faithful love. For He does not enjoy bringing affliction or suffering on mankind.

Alex Smith

05-04-2012, 02:00 AM

Perhaps the SOF needs to be revised, because post mortem repentance is a lie of satan.That's quite strong language to use about something that many Christians have believed in & still do :(

Also how would it benefit satan if some Christians believed in postmortem repentance? :confused:

Alex Smith

05-04-2012, 02:16 AM

We can't 'clarify' willful ignorance.:confused: all along I've simply said that for the majority of Christians (now & throughout history) postmortem repentance falls into the category of theologoumena.

The CWS forum is not a specific denomination, but cuts across a broad spectrum of Christendom.That was the impression I got from the SoF and that's why I wanted to raise that across the spectrum of Christendom some believe in postmortem repentance & some do not, so I was glad you weren't spelling out your position on it.

Although, not specifically spelled out, the clear understanding of repentance is for the here and now.I agree that within most Calvinist denominations that's the understanding, however, respectfully, as far as I know, Calvinism represents only about 10%-20% of Christendom.

RoyS

05-04-2012, 02:35 AM

:confused: all along I've simply said that for the majority of Christians (now & throughout history) postmortem repentance falls into the category of theologoumena.
I was referring to Israel. Nice use of a very obscure word, BTW.

That was the impression I got from the SoF and that's why I wanted to raise that across the spectrum of Christendom some believe in postmortem repentance & some do not, so I was glad you weren't spelling out your position on it.
I don't believe that there is one single mainsteam denomination that belives in post mortem repentance. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I agree that within most Calvinist denominations that's the understanding, however, respectfully, as far as I know, Calvinism represents only about 10%-20% of Christendom.
Here we go with the 'Calvinist' BS again. Why are you thinking that our membership is Calvinist?

Hansc

05-04-2012, 02:38 AM

Alex

I agree that within most Calvinist denominations that's the understanding, however, respectfully, as far as I know, Calvinism represents only about 10%-20% of Christendom.

Although some Calvinist have passed through this area, as far as I know, I don't think that currently there are any Calvinists here. So enough already with the Calvinist business. Naturally, if a Calvinist does happen to show up in the future, I will direct him/her to you.

Alex Smith

05-04-2012, 03:48 AM

Nice use of a very obscure word, BTW.Sorry, here's a helpful definition from http://www.kencollins.com/glossary/theology.htm
A theologoumenon is a theological opinion. This word is often applied to opposing arguments in a theological debate, where both sides are rigorously orthodox. This happens because we possess sufficient knowledge to assure our salvation, but we do not possess all knowledge, and we cannot satisfy our curiosity about every matter. For example, scripture does not teach us precisely what demons are, so theories about demons are theologoumena.

I don't believe that there is one single mainsteam denomination that belives in post mortem repentance. Correct me if I'm wrong.I find http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_membe rs helpful. Given the Pope & respected theologians like Balthasar (& Church Fathers like Clement of Alexandria & Gregory of Nyssa) think Christians should hope & pray everyone is saved, I think that means many of the 1200 million Catholics believe it's theologoumena (in talking to Catholics I've found this to be the case too). Likewise there have been a couple of prominent Eastern Orthodox (e.g. Archpriest Sergius Bulgakov) who thought it was theologoumena (this was reinforced when I recently asked an EO lecturer about it). So as far as I know, the 230 million Eastern Orthodox usually see it this way. A number Anglican ministers (& C.S. Lewis) have openly said it was theologoumena & when I asked one to look into it, he said it was. So assuming he knew what he was talking about, we can add in many of the 85 million Anglicans. From the lectures I attended on the Oriental Orthodox (82 million) they appear to follow the Eastern Orthodox view. Within Protestant denominations, I've found Methodists often see it as theologoumena, as do the Grace Communion International churches. I know Martin Luther didn't rule it out entirely, so there's probably many Lutherans who don't either. I've talked to some Presbyterian & Christian Reformed ministers who see it as theologoumena.

Here we go with the 'Calvinist' BS again. Why are you thinking that our membership is Calvinist?
Although some Calvinist have passed through this area, as far as I know, I don't think that currently there are any Calvinists here. So enough already with the Calvinist business.Sorry, please remember I'm new here so didn't know this has come up before. I've grown up in Calvinist circles where similar things about postmortem salvation have been said, so I made an assumption. My point wasn't really anything to do with Calvinists, I was just trying to highlight that it's very easy for all of us to assume our branch of Christianity is it. I personally found it quite humbling when I discovered that, of the approximately 2400 million people who call themselves Christians, less than 30% are in my Protestants branch. Btw, I'm not saying the majority is necessarily right :)

RoyS

05-04-2012, 06:08 AM

Lol. I didn't need a definition; I am quite capable of looking up words on my own. Believe me, you are not 'smarter' than others here.

Titus

05-04-2012, 07:00 AM

That's quite strong language to use about something that many Christians have believed in & still do :(Also how would it benefit satan if some Christians believed in postmortem repentance? :confused: You're kidding right? Why would anyone want to get saved in this life and miss all the "fun" if they can wait till after they die to do it? Jesus used some pretty strong language with regard to false doctrine and teachers as well, btw.

SOTWIncognito

05-04-2012, 12:20 PM

You're kidding right? Why would anyone want to get saved in this life and miss all the "fun" if they can wait till after they die to do it? Jesus used some pretty strong language with regard to false doctrine and teachers as well, btw.

This is an assumption, Titus. From this, you reveal you think that a life of sin is 'fun'? I don't think there is one person who acknowledges God now, who would go a pursue a life of sin because they know they are saved or have a chance to repent after death. They know sin is not 'fun' at all and they are not missing out on anything.

Hansc

05-04-2012, 03:41 PM

This is an assumption, Titus. From this, you reveal you think that a life of sin is 'fun'? I don't think there is one person who acknowledges God now, who would go a pursue a life of sin because they know they are saved or have a chance to repent after death. They know sin is not 'fun' at all and they are not missing out on anything.

You understand that it is the sinnner not the saint who hears the message and decides to "live it up" now and get saved later? Many church goers would fall into this catagory. To the carnal mind, there is indeed "fun" in sin. God clearly states that the carnally driven person finds "fun" in sin. That's what the whole spirit vs. flesh struggle is about.

II Thessalonians 2:2
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Alex Smith

05-05-2012, 12:25 AM

Lol. I didn't need a definition; I am quite capable of looking up words on my own. Believe me, you are not 'smarter' than others here.:confused: You said it was a "very obscure word" so I thought the edifying thing to do was provide a definition for the benefit of anyone else reading along. Sorry I didn't mean to imply you weren't capable of looking words up. I openly admit that I have infinitely more to learn than I already know & that we all need God's help to grow in the knowledge of Him.

You're kidding right?No, I'm definitely not kidding.

Why would anyone want to get saved in this life and miss all the "fun" if they can wait till after they die to do it?:( sin isn't fulfilling, it's only fleetingly "fun" (e.g. the Parable of the Prodigal Son). I wouldn't trade in my relationship with God for anything. Are you implying that without the fear of Everlasting Conscious Torment/Punishment, you wouldn't become a Christian in this life?

Jesus used some pretty strong language with regard to false doctrine and teachers as well, btw.I'm aware of that, however none of us here have the authority & insight Jesus. I don't think postmortem repentance is false teaching - as I've tried to explain it's held by many Christians: from lay people to theologians, Church Fathers, & Popes.

historyb

05-05-2012, 02:02 AM

So it's not surprising that billions of Catholic & Eastern Orthodox (& even some Protestants) have (& still do) hoped & prayed for it. Possibly of more interest to us Evangelicals is that C.S. Lewis believed some people would (e.g. The Great Divorce, where the man with the lizard of Lust on his shoulder was saved, and the MacD character who assures Lewis that the woman frightened by the unicorns may yet be saved, as he has seen it happen before).

We do not pray that someone be saved after death. Once dead it is over, only one alive can change after death one's decision is final

Hansc

05-05-2012, 02:07 AM

Alex

I don't think postmortem repentance is false teaching - as I've tried to explain it's held by many Christians: from lay people to theologians, Church Fathers, & Popes.

Alex, while there may be some individuals who have been sucked into this mistaken view, the mass of the standard Christian view from Orthodox to Catholic to Protestant do not go along with this. Sure you can probably find some individuals or even clumps of individuals within the various confessions that are confused and get swayed by unsound teaching, but the dogma of these various groups is not in line with the idea of universalism.

You present the belief in universalism as historically much more wide spread than it really is, or ever was. In this, you do not present an accurate picture of the Church, church history or the Word, hopefully your spin on the Christian position is unintentional and due to some deeper problems.

Alex Smith

05-05-2012, 05:35 AM

We do not pray that someone be saved after death. Once dead it is over, only one alive can change after death one's decision is finalWhilst I respect that this is your view, & the view of many Protestants, it has never been the only orthodox view in the Church.

Alex, while there may be some individuals who have been sucked into this mistaken view, the mass of the standard Christian view from Orthodox to Catholic to Protestant do not go along with this. Sure you can probably find some individuals or even clumps of individuals within the various confessions that are confused and get swayed by unsound teaching, but the dogma of these various groups is not in line with the idea of universalism.Some postmortem repentance does not equate to Universalism (e.g. C.S. Lewis thought the some people in Hell would repent & go to Heaven, but he also thought the majority would eventually annihilate themselves). I agree the dogma of these various groups isn't Universalism, I've never claimed it was. However, just because they don't have it as dogma, doesn't mean it's automatically heresy, many (more than I realised when I was a Presbyterian) see it as theologoumena.

You present the belief in universalism as historically much more wide spread than it really is, or ever was. In this, you do not present an accurate picture of the Church, church history or the Word, hopefully your spin on the Christian position is unintentional and due to some deeper problems.I was just trying to show that enough Christians view postmortem repentance as theologoumena that it might be worth considering it as theologoumena too. In regards to Universalism, yes unfortunately it's been a minority position for at least 1500 years, possibly more. It may not have been that way in the first 500 years, as Augustine says in Enchiridion Chapter XXIX, 112
It is quite in vain, then, that some--indeed very many--yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be. Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture--but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express the literal truth. "God will not forget," they say, "to show mercy, nor in his anger will he shut up his mercy."Obviously he didn't agree with the Universalists, but he didn't say they were going against Scripture or were heretics.

Btw, being a minority position doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong e.g. the Reformers had to overturn the status quo, & they encouraged the Church to continue reforming.

Interestingly given the strong influence of the current Pope on Catholicism, I think the majority position is probably now neither Universalism, nor non-Universalism, but Soteriological Agnosticism.

historyb

05-05-2012, 12:38 PM

Whilst I respect that this is your view, & the view of many Protestants, it has never been the only orthodox view in the Church.

Yes it has, universalism is a heterodox belief across the Board and Catholicism has never believed in such a thing.

Titus

05-05-2012, 01:54 PM

This is an assumption, Titus. From this, you reveal you think that a life of sin is 'fun'? I don't think there is one person who acknowledges God now, who would go a pursue a life of sin because they know they are saved or have a chance to repent after death. They know sin is not 'fun' at all and they are not missing out on anything.I was being sarcastic, but yes sin is pleasurable; that's what makes it so attractive. When I got saved, I was living a sinful lifestyle, and enjoying it very much, but deep down I knew the way I lived was wrong and in the end would only bring me disappointment and pain, but in that season, it was pleasurable. But I was responding to Alex's question.
How would it benefit satan if some Christians believed in postmortem repentance? If sinners believe that there is an opportunity to repent and be saved after death, what motivation do they have to stop living a sinful lifestyle? Why not just party on?

Hansc

05-05-2012, 07:31 PM

Alex, you seem to go a lot by what a few people said some time ago.

Just because some people said something a long time ago, does not in any way add to the accurate understanding of the issue. It could be that they have just been wrong for a long time. Length of belief does not make it right. Note how Paul in Galatians, his first book, was bemoaning the fact that some were getting stuff wrong. He also had to set Peter straight, because Peter got some things wrong.

An old belief does not make it right, it could just be wrong for a long time.

also:

(e.g. C.S. Lewis thought the some people in Hell would repent & go to Heaven, but he also thought the majority would eventually annihilate themselves)

So, what? Lewis got this wrong. While Lewis is a much beloved Christian writer, he also got stuff really wrong. For example, Lewis also did NOT accept Scripture as the inerrant Word of God. That's pretty wrong, should I now listen to him on this??

Alex Smith

05-05-2012, 08:40 PM

Yes it has, universalism is a heterodox belief across the Board and Catholicism has never believed in such a thing.Sorry I thought we were talking about postmortem repentance (which doesn't necessarily equate to Universalism) that has been more widely affirmed than Universalism.

Anyway, in regards to Universalism, "never" is a strong word and only requires a single example to refute. e.g. the "Father of the Fathers" Gregory of Nyssa.

I'm glad you at least only put me into the category of "heterodoxy" as according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterodoxy that's better than heresy :)

Given the positive stuff that the Pope has written, I'd be genuinely interested to see if the official Catholic documents say it's heterodoxy or theologoumena?

historyb

05-05-2012, 08:52 PM

It's flat out heresy, I was just being nice. The Church has never believed such nonsense as Universal Salvation it is a fool's idea

Alex Smith

05-05-2012, 09:19 PM

I was being sarcastic, but yes sin is pleasurable; that's what makes it so attractive. When I got saved, I was living a sinful lifestyle, and enjoying it very much, but deep down I knew the way I lived was wrong and in the end would only bring me disappointment and pain, but in that season, it was pleasurable. But I was responding to Alex's question. If sinners believe that there is an opportunity to repent and be saved after death, what motivation do they have to stop living a sinful lifestyle? Why not just party on?That's a fair question. One of the challenges that many forms of Christianity faces is people mistakenly think that they can just wilfully go on sinning, as God will just ignore it; be that because they once went to church, or said the sinner's prayer, or they were baptised, or went to confession, or they believe they are Elect, or they believe in Universalism.

But being saved is not a simple “get out of jail card”, just as in this life, the more twisted & depraved you become, the more untwisting God has to help you do, and that is real & seriously excruciating. As Jesus said, way better to settle your differences rather than go to the Judge. Each mile you walk from God is one you have to walk back, with the Holy Spirit’s help. It would’ve been much better if the Prodigal Son only went as far as the end of the driveway before realising his mistake.

To these people I say, the more you let gangrene grow the more painful the surgery will be! God takes sin so seriously He won't rest until He helps (the more stubborn we are, the more painful it will be) the last sinner stops sinning in their body, mind or spirit.

Alex, you seem to go a lot by what a few people said some time ago.That's because the Ecumenical Councils & Early Creeds, which typically are used to define orthodoxy, where some time ago :) But I also mentioned current people to show that there's been a consistent, albeit thin, thread throughout Church history.

Just because some people said something a long time ago, does not in any way add to the accurate understanding of the issue. It could be that they have just been wrong for a long time. Length of belief does not make it right. Note how Paul in Galatians, his first book, was bemoaning the fact that some were getting stuff wrong. He also had to set Peter straight, because Peter got some things wrong.

An old belief does not make it right, it could just be wrong for a long time.I totally agree, as Roger Olson recently said:
Tradition gets a vote but never a veto. The Bible trumps tradition.

So, what? Lewis got this wrong. While Lewis is a much beloved Christian writer, he also got stuff really wrong. For example, Lewis also did NOT accept Scripture as the inerrant Word of God. That's pretty wrong, should I now listen to him on this??I don't think Lewis got everything right either, however my point is most Christians don't call he a heretic & I assume if he wanted to post in the "Christian" part of this forum, you would welcome him, even though he believed in postmortem salvation...

Alex Smith

05-05-2012, 09:34 PM

It's flat out heresy, I was just being nice. The Church has never believed such nonsense as Universal Salvation it is a fool's idea:( Whilst it's true I may be a fool, there are (& have been) some very intelligent theologians & philosophers who have believed it, so I doubt it's nonsense or foolishness (admittedly it could be mistaken).

historyb

05-05-2012, 10:11 PM

:( Whilst it's true I may be a fool, there are (& have been) some very intelligent theologians & philosophers who have believed it, so I doubt it's nonsense or foolishness (admittedly it could be mistaken).

It doesn't matter who believes it, it's still heretical

Alex Smith

05-05-2012, 10:26 PM

It doesn't matter who believes it, it's still heretical :confused: What if the Apostle Paul believed it? Even C.S. Lewis admitted Paul certainly wrote many things that prima facie sound universalistic e.g. Rom 11:32, Rom 3:23-24, Col 1:20, Rom 5:18
For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
For all have sinned (fall short of the glory of God) & are justified by His grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus!
[God] through Christ to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross.
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

historyb

05-05-2012, 10:55 PM

Paul did not believe it. This is not a universalist forum

Alex Smith

05-05-2012, 11:17 PM

Paul did not believe it.My main point there was that who believes sometimes does matter. Also would you mind sharing your evidence that Paul didn't believe it?

This is not a universalist forumI realise, although being a Christian forum I hope it allows Christians to discuss the full range of orthodox soteriology.

historyb

05-06-2012, 12:20 AM

My main point there was that who believes sometimes does matter. Also would you mind sharing your evidence that Paul didn't believe it?
I realize, although being a Christian forum I hope it allows Christians to discuss the full range of orthodox soteriology.

It is not orthodox in any sense of the word, it is just another foolish notion because man thinks he knows better

Alex Smith

05-06-2012, 03:24 AM

It is not orthodox in any sense of the word, it is just another foolish notion because man thinks he knows betterI've tried to show you both historical & biblical support for my position, if you're not willing to engage with my evidence, please could you at least show me some of the evidence for your position?

historyb

05-06-2012, 01:17 PM

The Scriptures and Historic Orthodox Christianity

The Unaltered Gospel

05-11-2012, 05:02 PM

When you leave scripture in context UR has no foundation to stand on...All false doctrines are built on making scripture say what it doesn't say by taking it out of context...

Alex Smith

05-11-2012, 06:37 PM

When you leave scripture in context UR has no foundation to stand on...All false doctrines are built on making scripture say what it doesn't say by taking it out of context...I could just as easily say "When you leave scripture in context Eternal Conscious Torment has no foundation to stand on...All false doctrines are built on making scripture say what it doesn't say by taking it out of context..." :rolleyes: Sweeping generalisations don't add anything to the dialogue, especially when you don't even offer examples.

The Unaltered Gospel

05-11-2012, 06:44 PM

I could just as easily say "When you leave scripture in context Eternal Conscious Torment has no foundation to stand on...All false doctrines are built on making scripture say what it doesn't say by taking it out of context..." :rolleyes: Sweeping generalisations don't add anything to the dialogue, especially when you don't even offer examples.

Luke 16:19-31 explains that the Richman after he physically died he lifted up his eyes in Hell being tormented by the flames. Looks like he is conscience after death to me, Alex. Also, I will gladly walk with you and put each scripture back into context that you use to support UR and we can find out the subject of the verse together. Fair enough?

Alex Smith

05-12-2012, 02:19 AM

Luke 16:19-31 explains that the Richman after he physically died he lifted up his eyes in Hell being tormented by the flames. Looks like he is conscience after death to me, Alex.I would suggest two posible ways of understanding this passage:

1. It seems many theologians & scholars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_man_and_Lazarus) view the passage as a parable of some sort. It has been noted that there is an Egyptian parallel, seven Jewish ones, and one from Lucian (Greco-Roman). ie. Jesus reused an existing Pharisaical illustration but swapped the two main characters around to make a strong point to the Pharisees. I think this is reinforced by a number of logical inconsistencies within the story e.g. although it describes a "great gulf", they are able see each other, maintain a conversation (over the deafening screaming of everyone there) and the Richman obviously thought it was possibly to just "pass a drink". As N.T. Wright(?) put it, "The parable is more about Jesus and his mission to be the Israel that the Pharisees had failed to be, rather than a discourse on the afterlife."

2. Let's say Jesus really was trying to tell us literally what to expect in the afterlife. Firstly, He's only describing what happens before Judgement Day (e.g. the passage talks of Hades (not Hell) & Abraham's bosom a Jewish concept of a place within Sheol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosom_of_Abraham). From Revelation 20:14, I think we see that Hades comes to an end. Secondly, Jesus is telling this story before His death & resurrection. i.e. as someone (Gregory of Nyssa?) once put it, the Cross is the bridge across the "great gulf".

Also, I will gladly walk with you and put each scripture back into context that you use to support UR and we can find out the subject of the verse together. Fair enough?Thanks for the offer, although as there are dozens of verses it could take months :p How about after we discuss the Richman & Lazarus, we discuss a few passages and see how we go? :)

Benjie

05-12-2012, 06:17 AM

Ahh, the great scholar Wikipedia. Known for such accurate and theologically sound missives as . . .

um. . .

Wait. . .

/sarcasm

The Unaltered Gospel

05-12-2012, 06:44 AM

I would suggest two posible ways of understanding this passage:

1. It seems many theologians & scholars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_man_and_Lazarus) view the passage as a parable of some sort. It has been noted that there is an Egyptian parallel, seven Jewish ones, and one from Lucian (Greco-Roman). ie. Jesus reused an existing Pharisaical illustration but swapped the two main characters around to make a strong point to the Pharisees. I think this is reinforced by a number of logical inconsistencies within the story e.g. although it describes a "great gulf", they are able see each other, maintain a conversation (over the deafening screaming of everyone there) and the Richman obviously thought it was possibly to just "pass a drink". As N.T. Wright(?) put it, "The parable is more about Jesus and his mission to be the Israel that the Pharisees had failed to be, rather than a discourse on the afterlife."

2. Let's say Jesus really was trying to tell us literally what to expect in the afterlife. Firstly, He's only describing what happens before Judgement Day (e.g. the passage talks of Hades (not Hell) & Abraham's bosom a Jewish concept of a place within Sheol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosom_of_Abraham). From Revelation 20:14, I think we see that Hades comes to an end. Secondly, Jesus is telling this story before His death & resurrection. i.e. as someone (Gregory of Nyssa?) once put it, the Cross is the bridge across the "great gulf".

Thanks for the offer, although as there are dozens of verses it could take months :p How about after we discuss the Richman & Lazarus, we discuss a few passages and see how we go? :)

No problem.

Jesus was giving us a spiritual truth to what happens after one dies. In the OT before the cross Sheol was the place where people went after they died. It had two places. One for the accounted righteous.(Abraham's bosom) One for the unrighteous (Hades) that was separated by the Great Gulf which you could not cross over. The only reason why it was set up this way because the OT people had to wait for Jesus to be crucified and resurrected to receive eternal life to get into Heaven (The promise in Hebrews 11:38-39). All the OT people had a sin nature and could not go to Heaven when they died. In Eph 4:8.. Jesus led the Captivity Captive or a multitude of captives ( righteous in Abraham's bosom and the ones who repented in the days of Noah 1 Peter 3:19-20) to Heaven after his resurrection.

Receiving Salvation in the OT( Pre-cross) was not the same as it is now (Post-cross). Now after one dies you either go straight to Hades/Hell or Heaven.

Hansc

05-12-2012, 04:56 PM

No problem.

Jesus was giving us a spiritual truth to what happens after one dies. In the OT before the cross Sheol was the place where people went after they died. It had two places. One for the accounted righteous.(Abraham's bosom) One for the unrighteous (Hades) that was separated by the Great Gulf which you could not cross over. The only reason why it was set up this way because the OT people had to wait for Jesus to be crucified and resurrected to receive eternal life to get into Heaven (The promise in Hebrews 11:38-39). All the OT people had a sin nature and could not go to Heaven when they died. In Eph 4:8.. Jesus led the Captivity Captive or a multitude of captives ( righteous in Abraham's bosom and the ones who repented in the days of Noah 1 Peter 3:19-20) to Heaven after his resurrection.

Receiving Salvation in the OT( Pre-cross) was not the same as it is now (Post-cross). Now after one dies you either go straight to Hades/Hell or Heaven.

Good job UG in explaining it in a few simple concise statements. Earlier in the thread we went over how in the OT people had "atonement" that is a covering for the sin nature, but in the NT people have "redemption" the removal of the sin nature and receive the new nature in Christ. This is possible since after the resurrection. It seemed that some were still unclear on the distinction of what the promise was in the OT as compared to the NT. I thought you did a good job of spelling it out.

Alex Smith

05-13-2012, 03:39 AM

Jesus was giving us a spiritual truth to what happens after one dies.I don't mind trying to dialogue on that premise, but I'm curious why you think that was what Jesus was doing, given He was using a story that to the audience would've probably been as common as say Robin Hood is to us?

In the OT before the cross Sheol was the place where people went after they died. It had two places. One for the accounted righteous.(Abraham's bosom) One for the unrighteous (Hades) that was separated by the Great Gulf which you could not cross over.I agree, as far as I know, that was the Jewish understanding of the afterlife.

The only reason why it was set up this way because the OT people had to wait for Jesus to be crucified and resurrected to receive eternal life to get into Heaven (The promise in Hebrews 11:38-39). All the OT people had a sin nature and could not go to Heaven when they died. In Eph 4:8.. Jesus led the Captivity Captive or a multitude of captives ( righteous in Abraham's bosom and the ones who repented in the days of Noah 1 Peter 3:19-20) to Heaven after his resurrection.Sure that's one of the common views and I think there's good support for it, assuming we allow room for a few exceptions (e.g. Enoch, Moses, Elijah).

Receiving Salvation in the OT( Pre-cross) was not the same as it is now (Post-cross). Now after one dies you either go straight to Hades/Hell or Heaven.I'm happy to go along with you here, but aren't you just reinforcing my point that even if Jesus was talking about the afterlife, that a lot of extremely significant things (crucifixion, breaking into & out of Hades, the resurrection, the ascension, etc.) have occurred between when He told the story & now? i.e. Jesus has bridged the "great gulf" so now we know there's a way out of Hades. Again isn't Sheol/Hades destroyed in Rev 20:14, so whatever replaces it will probably be different?

Earlier in the thread we went over how in the OT people had "atonement" that is a covering for the sin nature:confused: Which page did you go over "atonement"?

The Unaltered Gospel

05-13-2012, 06:19 AM

Sure that's one of the common views and I think there's good support for it, assuming we allow room for a few exceptions (e.g. Enoch, Moses, Elijah).

No exceptions, Enoch, Moses, and Elijah were OT people too who had sin natures. All OT people had sin natures and could not go to Heaven when they died.( Pre-cross) This is also supported by John 3:13 "There is no one who has gone up to Heaven, but there is One who has come down from Heaven, namely the Son of Man whose home is in Heaven".

I'm happy to go along with you here, but aren't you just reinforcing my point that even if Jesus was talking about the afterlife, that a lot of extremely significant things (crucifixion, breaking into & out of Hades, the resurrection, the ascension, etc.) have occurred between when He told the story & now? i.e. Jesus has bridged the "great gulf" so now we know there's a way out of Hades. Again isn't Sheol/Hades destroyed in Rev 20:14, so whatever replaces it will probably be different?

That is good because it is the truth. Jesus did not bridge the "great gulf" for a way out of Hades. When you understand the OT way of salvation compared to the NT way of salvation the confusion goes away. Pre-cross was only set up this way due to the born again experience not being available yet to the OT people because Jesus had yet gone to the cross. There is no need for it anymore. Post-cross.. the provision for salvation and the born again experience is available to every human being now that wasn't available in the OT. That is the difference.

True, Hell is only a temporary place of torment for the unbeliever until final judgment when they are not found in the book of life and are thrown into the eternal lake of fire to experience the second death. Rev 20:11-15.

Alex Smith

05-14-2012, 04:52 AM

No exceptions, Enoch, Moses, and Elijah were OT people too who had sin natures. All OT people had sin natures and could not go to Heaven when they died.( Pre-cross) This is also supported by John 3:13 "There is no one who has gone up to Heaven, but there is One who has come down from Heaven, namely the Son of Man whose home is in Heaven".Do you think Moses & Elijah were living in Abraham's bosom before & after the transfiguration (until after the cross)?

What about Enoch? Heb 11:5 & Gen 5:24 aren't explicit, but seems to suggest somewhere other than Sheol??
It was faith that kept Enoch from dying. Instead, he was taken up to God, and nobody could find him, because God had taken him up. The scripture says that before Enoch was taken up, he had pleased God.I also found Sirach 44:16 (this & the Books of Enoch are usually deuterocanonical (unless you're part of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church or Eritrean Orthodox Church) so I don't give them as much weight as Hebrews)
Enoch pleased the Lord and was taken up into heaven. He became an inspiration for repentance for all time to come.

That is good because it is the truth.You're certainly more confident than I am - given how many theologians have disagreed over the interpretation of these passages & exact details of the afterlife.

Jesus did not bridge the "great gulf" for a way out of Hades.So although He went to both Hades & Abraham's bosom, He blocked the way behind Him? It's interesting that Matt 16:10 tells us that Hades has gates... gates to which Jesus has the keys (Rev 1:18). Anyway, given it appears Rev describes the end of Hades, I'm not sure why it's brought into this debate, shouldn't we be discussing what the symbolism of the Lake of Fire means?

Zephaniah 3:8-9 is particularly interesting how it appears anger/jealousy/burning/fire/consuming results in restoration/calling-on-God/obedience.
Therefore, wait for Me — this is the Lord’s declaration— until the day I rise up for plunder. For My decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, in order to pour out My indignation on them, all My burning anger; for the whole earth will be consumed by the fire of My jealousy. For I will then restore pure speech to the peoples so that all of them may call on the name of Yahweh and serve Him with a single purpose.

Baptising people in Luke 3:16b & Matt 3:11b
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Purifying everyone in Mark 9:49:
For everyone will be salted with fire.

Testing people in 1 Cor 3:13b:
fire will test what sort of work each one has done

Refining people in Mal 3:2-3:
But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the LORD.

Purging people of sin in Isa 4:4:
when the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning/purging.

In the burning bush, temple sacrificial system, etc. it’s also a symbol of purity.

Even when it is used in judgment/anger (e.g. Sodom) it isn’t incompatible with love (e.g. Sodom is destroyed so that it can be restored in Eze 16:53).

Even "God is a consuming fire, a jealous God" (Deut 4:24) isn't necessarily negative as the jealousy of God is part of His love. Btw I think the other 6 times "fire" appears in Deut 4 are all in non-negative senses...

When you understand the OT way of salvation compared to the NT way of salvation the confusion goes away. Pre-cross was only set up this way due to the born again experience not being available yet to the OT people because Jesus had yet gone to the cross. There is no need for it anymore. Post-cross.. the provision for salvation and the born again experience is available to every human being now that wasn't available in the OT. That is the difference.I fairly sure I understand your interpretation, and think it's got reasonable support. It's just I'm aware that other Christians hold different views on this topic e.g.http://www.bible.ca/hades-lk-16.gif

True, Hell is only a temporary place of torment for the unbeliever until final judgment when they are not found in the book of life and are thrown into the eternal lake of fire to experience the second death. Rev 20:11-15.I must admit I find it strange that the "second death" occurs after Death is thrown into the Lake of Fire. It's also odd that although Heb 9:27 explicitly says that we'll only die once that there is this second death :confused: (I suggest seeing http://www.christianwebsite.com/forum/showthread.php?166-God-SWORE-an-oath-to-save-ALL-of-mankind!&p=1247&viewfull=1#post1247 where I made some suggestions about how the Book of Life can be compatible with Evangelical Universalism).

The Unaltered Gospel

05-14-2012, 06:24 AM

Do you think Moses & Elijah were living in Abraham's bosom before & after the transfiguration (until after the cross)?

What about Enoch? Heb 11:5 & Gen 5:24 aren't explicit, but seems to suggest somewhere other than Sheol??

Yes, Moses and Enoch had sin natures too and could not enter Heaven until they received eternal life after the cross. Matthew 27:52-53 confirms this. Jesus confirms this by saying no man has ascended up to heaven before his resurrection in John 3:13. Heb 11:5 and Gen 5:24 only say that Enoch did not taste physical death and God took him to Abraham's bosom with the rest of the OT believers. No exceptions.

Gehenna symbolized the lake of fire. There is no evidence that the lake of fire ( the second death) is used to purify anyone. Fire doesn't change ones nature. Faith in Jesus while alive on this earth does. ( Rev 16:8-9) Also, Rev 20:11-5 is the final judgment of ones life and if you are not found recorded in the book of life you experience eternal death ( second death) and are thrown into the lake of fire for eternity. Notice there are no more judgements after Rev 20 and no more adding to the book of life... you just see believers living in eternal glory.(Rev 21). The lake of fire is an eternal prison not a hospital to refine people. This is where UR fails. This is where the rubber does not hit the road for UR. There is no record of anyone leaving the lake of fire and being found recorded in the book of life. There is no retrial for the unbelieving guilty after Rev 20. Hint: Therefore all those scriptures you use to support UR must have been taken out of context...

Alex Smith

05-14-2012, 08:41 PM

Gehenna symbolized the lake of fire.Are there any verses to support this claim?

There is no evidence that the lake of fire ( the second death) is used to purify anyone."No evidence" seems to be overstating things, given I quoted some passages that do link fire to purification...

Fire doesn't change ones nature.Are you sure, I'm fairly sure the Holy Spirit (often symbolised as fire) does?

Faith in Jesus while alive on this earth does. ( Rev 16:8-9):confused: how is Rev 16:8-9 linked to faith in Jesus??

Also, Rev 20:11-5 is the final judgment of ones life and if you are not found recorded in the book of life you experience eternal death ( second death) and are thrown into the lake of fire for eternity. Notice there are no more judgements after Rev 20 and no more adding to the book of life... you just see believers living in eternal glory.(Rev 21). The lake of fire is an eternal prison not a hospital to refine people. This is where UR fails. This is where the rubber does not hit the road for UR. There is no record of anyone leaving the lake of fire and being found recorded in the book of life. There is no retrial for the unbelieving guilty after Rev 20.I think once people, with the Holy Spirit's help, repent in they Lake of Fire they can "escape through the flames" (like 1 Cor 3:15). I think there is room for this in the remainder of Rev. For example, Rev 21:24 where we see "The nations" & "the kings of the earth" (up until now both are consistently the label of non-believers) coming in through the open gates. Likewise Rev 22:2 speaks of "The leaves of the tree are for healing the nations" (the only people in view who need healing are the non-believers). Again I would suggest Rev 22:14 tells us those who are outside the city (the wicked v15) are “blessed” & “washed” so that they may “enter the city by the [open] gates”. I see Rev 22:17 inviting the thirsty (only non-believers are still thirsty) to “Come!” Finally it’s even possible the last verse of the Bible supports it (see ESV), “The grace of the Lord Jesus be with ALL. Amen”

Hint: Therefore all those scriptures you use to support UR must have been taken out of context...:rolleyes: I could just as easily say that all those scriptures you use to support ECT must have been taken out of context because they fail to take into account all the UR passages...

The Unaltered Gospel

05-14-2012, 10:00 PM

Are there any verses to support this claim?

"No evidence" seems to be overstating things, given I quoted some passages that do link fire to purification...

Are you sure, I'm fairly sure the Holy Spirit (often symbolised as fire) does?

:confused: how is Rev 16:8-9 linked to faith in Jesus??

I think once people, with the Holy Spirit's help, repent in they Lake of Fire they can "escape through the flames" (like 1 Cor 3:15). I think there is room for this in the remainder of Rev. For example, Rev 21:24 where we see "The nations" & "the kings of the earth" (up until now both are consistently the label of non-believers) coming in through the open gates. Likewise Rev 22:2 speaks of "The leaves of the tree are for healing the nations" (the only people in view who need healing are the non-believers). Again I would suggest Rev 22:14 tells us those who are outside the city (the wicked v15) are “blessed” & “washed” so that they may “enter the city by the [open] gates”. I see Rev 22:17 inviting the thirsty (only non-believers are still thirsty) to “Come!” Finally it’s even possible the last verse of the Bible supports it (see ESV), “The grace of the Lord Jesus be with ALL. Amen”

:rolleyes: I could just as easily say that all those scriptures you use to support ECT must have been taken out of context because they fail to take into account all the UR passages...

1 Cor 3:15 happens when the believers works are judged at the judgement seat of Christ.(REV 20:11-15) Nothing to do with the LOF. I was using Rev 16:8 as reference of people being burned by fire and not repenting but blaspheming God. Rev 21:24 are believers that were found written in the book of life at final judgment in REV 20:11-15 not after...

Rev 22:6-7 says Jesus has not come back yet for these things to be done. verses 14 and 17 are referring to the the modern day body of Christ evangelizing today not evangelizing people in the LOF.

You are grossly taking scriptures out of context to make it say what UR wants them to say out of desperation...I'm praying for you Alex.

The Unaltered Gospel

05-14-2012, 10:11 PM

Alex, give me your best UR passage in the NT and we will put it back in context and see what the subject of the verse is talking about. Fair enough?

Alex Smith

05-15-2012, 05:11 AM

1 Cor 3:15 happens when the believers works are judged at the judgement seat of Christ.(REV 20:11-15)1 Cor 3:11-15 (ESV):
For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.A non-believer would only be saved through the fire when they received Jesus. You're right that at Rev 20:11-15 many (most, if you're an exclusivist like me) haven't yet received Jesus, so when they enter the fire they'll have no works or foundation. But when they receive Jesus, I see no reason why God wouldn't save them through the fire. Anyway, my main reason for mentioning 1 Cor 3:15, is that God purging people through fire is a biblical concept.

Nothing to do with the LOF.Whilst it doesn't say so explicitly, that shouldn't be surprising, as much of the symbolism of Revelation isn't fully & explicitly explained but requires looking at how the symbols are used in the rest of the Bible.

I was using Rev 16:8 as reference of people being burned by fire and not repenting but blaspheming God.Ok, that makes more sense. Sure, sometimes divine punishment doesn’t have any perceived positive effects/outcomes, but the Bible also has many examples where divine punishment (even sometimes just the threat of it) does result in obvious positive outcomes. Additionally I think 1 Corinthians 15:28 is the culmination of history, not Rev 16 or Rev 22. For example, when Sodom got torched there was no immediate response either (they were all dead!), however God promised to restore them later (Eze 16:53).

Rev 21:24 are believers that were found written in the book of life at final judgment in REV 20:11-15 not after...Rev 20:11-15 makes no mention of "The nations" or "the kings of the earth", so given, as far as I know, up until then both consistently label non-believers, I think my stance is at very least reasonable.

Rev 22:6-7 says Jesus has not come back yet for these things to be done. verses 14 and 17 are referring to the the modern day body of Christ evangelizing today not evangelizing people in the LOF.Rev 22:6-21 appears to be some sort of sweeping summary of the book, so I don't think we can say exactly when/where v14 & 17 occurs. Again all I'm saying is these verses aren't definitive either way, therefore if Evangelical Universalism can be established from the rest of Scripture (which obviously I believe it can), then these passages aren't a barrier to it.

You are grossly taking scriptures out of context to make it say what UR wants them to say out of desperation...The only took up my position after years of studying the Bible - I was surprised to find the case for ECT is much weaker than I thought it would be, and that the case for UR is much stronger than I'd been told. I'm don't feel any desperation :rolleyes:

I'm praying for you Alex.Thanks, I'm praying for you too. I think we all need the Spirit's guidance.

Alex, give me your best UR passage in the NT and we will put it back in context and see what the subject of the verse is talking about. Fair enough?I think there's strong support for it from the metanarrative of the Bible beginning with the overflowing of the intertrinitarian love resulting in Creation, and eventually resulting in God receiving the free, loving worship He deserves when He's "all in all". However, I'm happy to try to present a few passages that led me towards that understanding...

For all have sinned (fall short of the glory of God) & are justified by His grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus!(Romans 3:23-24) Given the Bible seems clear that "all" without exception "have sinned", I think that implies "all" without exception "are justified by His grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus!".

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.(Romans 5:18) I hope you believe Adam's original sin led to condemnation for all without exception, therefore I think it's fair to say Christ's act being "justification and life" to all without exception.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything He might be preeminent. For in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross.(Colossians 1:15-20) Given "all things" is used here in ways I hope we'd agree is "all things" without exception I think it's most logical to use it that way in regards to being reconciled (making peace) to God.

The Unaltered Gospel

05-15-2012, 06:39 AM

Alex

Romans 3:23-24 Paul is addressing Christians about what has happened to them after they have believed on Jesus. Verse 22 Paul explains the righteousness of God unto all that believe. This does not imply that all without exception will believe on Jesus for justification by grace. You are adding your words to the text.

Romans 5:18 starts with Therefore...In other words "based on what I just said in the previous verses" Verse 17 says one must receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness...The all in this verse is referring to the people who receive not all without exception...this in no way means that all without exception will receive the gift of righteousness...Again you are adding your misunderstanding to these verses to say what they dont say.

Colossians 1:15-20 Jesus made provision for Creation to be reconciled. The heavens and the earth without exception will be restored. Humanity on the other hand will not be restored without exception. There is provision for all Humanity to be reconciled back to the Father through faith in Jesus' completed work on the cross. To partake in this reconciliation one must appropriate it in their life by faith. Verse 22 explains we were alienated and enemies of God before we received the reconciliation. Romans 5:10-11 also confirms this. In no way, shape or form does Colossians 1:15-20 imply that all people whoever lived will receive this provision of reconciliation...again you are adding that to the text.

Hansc

05-15-2012, 03:23 PM

Just a short note. I'm enjoying reading along with the thread and think both of you are doing a good job, although personally I believe that UG is more in tune with what the Bible actually teaches.

Alex Smith

05-17-2012, 09:02 PM

Romans 3:23-24 Paul is addressing Christians about what has happened to them after they have believed on Jesus.Yes, the letter was written primarily to Christians, however that doesn't mean Paul can't make statements about humanity. e.g. 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

Verse 22 Paul explains the righteousness of God unto all that believe.I agree, Paul also mentions that in 1:16, and that conversely that those doing evil will be punished. However, neither imply that everyone won't eventually believe, but simply saying that while they don't they will continue to experience God's punishment & won't be reconciled to Him.

This does not imply that all without exception will believe on Jesus for justification by grace.:confused: why not? Isn't Paul paralleling all sinned to all are justified? I don't understand why the requirement to first believe, perpetually excludes anyone from believing?

Romans 5:18 starts with Therefore...In other words "based on what I just said in the previous verses"Sure, 5:12-21 seems to only reinforce the comparison that Paul seems to be making between sin/death coming through Adam to everyone & justification/life coming through Christ to everyone.

Verse 17 says one must receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness...I totally agree, but like the requirement to believe, just because there's a requirement to first receive, perpetually excludes anyone from receiving?

The all in this verse is referring to the people who receive not all without exception...this in no way means that all without exception will receive the gift of righteousness...Sorry, I don't understand your reasoning. Paul seems to be using the same all without exception in v12 "death spread to all men because all sinned".

Also in what sense does "grace abounded all the more" (v20b, also v15 given "many" is used there in a way that seems to imply "everyone") if Adam's sin effects everyone, but Christ's grace only effects some people??

Colossians 1:15-20 Jesus made provision for Creation to be reconciled. The heavens and the earth without exception will be restored.Glad we agree on this much :cool:

Humanity on the other hand will not be restored without exception.Sorry I don't understand, how is humanity not a subset of all things? Especially as humans are mentioned explicitly in v15, 16, 18, 19, 21, 22, 23.

There is provision for all Humanity to be reconciled back to the Father through faith in Jesus' completed work on the cross.I totally agree, that's what I've been trying to say.

To partake in this reconciliation one must appropriate it in their life by faith.I agree (remembering that for some people part of their life will be in hell)

Verse 22 explains we were alienated and enemies of God before we received the reconciliation. Romans 5:10-11 also confirms this.Yes, I think it's a theme throughout Bible.

In no way, shape or form does Colossians 1:15-20 imply that all people whoever lived will receive this provision of reconciliation...That just seems to be an assertion :confused:

again you are adding that to the text.I don't think this adds anything to the conversation, but actually borders on being offensive... :(

Titus

05-17-2012, 09:21 PM

TUG has it going on. There is absolutely nothing in scripture that suggests even remotely that someone in hell would repent. in fact everything in scripture suggests that experience would only continue to harden the already hardened heart.

Israel

05-18-2012, 01:09 PM

Psalms 145:13-16

13Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.

14The LORD upholdeth all that fall, and raiseth up all those that be bowed down.

15The eyes of all wait upon thee; and thou givest them their meat in due season.

16Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing.

Romans 14:4-23

4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

13Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

14I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

When I say that all will be saved, it doesn't mean that I do what I want to do. What is unclean to me is STILL unclean. I however do not judge another because he deemed clean what I'd made in my mind unclean!

15But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

16Let not then your good be evil spoken of:

17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

The kingdom of God is NOT meat and drink but RIGHTEOUSNESS and PEACE and JOY in the Holy Ghost. The Spirit of Truth that Jesus will save all men. BUT THIS IS WHERE THE PROBLEM COMES IN!

18For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

19Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

20For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

21It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

22Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Mark 3:28-30

28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29But he th at shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

30Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Now think about think about this mighty congregation of the churches. The TRUTH is that God (Spirit) will save all through Christ, but there are those who consider this an UNCLEAN spirit! To these people, IT IS A SIN that God will save all, and count it as an evil thing!

Jude 1:24-25

24Now unto him that is able to keep YOU from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25To the ONLY wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

The Unaltered Gospel

05-18-2012, 02:04 PM

Yes, the letter was written primarily to Christians, however that doesn't mean Paul can't make statements about humanity. e.g. 1:18

I agree, Paul also mentions that in 1:16, and that conversely that those doing evil will be punished. However, neither imply that everyone won't eventually believe, but simply saying that while they don't they will continue to experience God's punishment & won't be reconciled to Him.

:confused: why not? Isn't Paul paralleling all sinned to all are justified? I don't understand why the requirement to first believe, perpetually excludes anyone from believing?

Sure, 5:12-21 seems to only reinforce the comparison that Paul seems to be making between sin/death coming through Adam to everyone & justification/life coming through Christ to everyone.

I totally agree, but like the requirement to believe, just because there's a requirement to first receive, perpetually excludes anyone from receiving?

Sorry, I don't understand your reasoning. Paul seems to be using the same all without exception in v12 "death spread to all men because all sinned".

Also in what sense does "grace abounded all the more" (v20b, also v15 given "many" is used there in a way that seems to imply "everyone") if Adam's sin effects everyone, but Christ's grace only effects some people??

Glad we agree on this much :cool:

Sorry I don't understand, how is humanity not a subset of all things? Especially as humans are mentioned explicitly in v15, 16, 18, 19, 21, 22, 23.

I totally agree, that's what I've been trying to say.

I agree (remembering that for some people part of their life will be in hell)

Yes, I think it's a theme throughout Bible.

That just seems to be an assertion :confused:

I don't think this adds anything to the conversation, but actually borders on being offensive... :(

I know you don't believe this, Alex, but God created man with free-will to choose and man never lost this ability to choose after the fall. God will not force himself on anyone and he certainly does not violate their will to make humanity to love Him. This is why everyone whoever lived will not be reconciled back to God because not everyone will accept this reconciliation. God honors peoples choices. Once you leave this natural world and enter the spiritual realm your eternal destiny has been decided. Your spiritual condition decides where you spend eternity. If you have spiritual life in your spirit you spend eternity with God. If you have spiritual death in your spirit you are separated from God for eternity.

Also, there is only one final judgment recorded in scripture. This happens in Rev 20:11-15. This is where Humanity's eternal destiny is determined. Every human being who ever lived shall stand before God and give an account for their lives. The book of life will be opened to see if your name is recorded and if it is not you experience the second death which is eternal death separation from God in the lake of fire.

There is no record after Rev 20:11-15 of God having all the guilty unbelievers who were not recorded in the book of life and thrown into the lake of fire to have them retrialed at the judgment seat to look again for their names in the book of life. It doesn't happen and will not happen.

Titus

05-18-2012, 04:27 PM

Israel

05-18-2012, 11:11 PM

Israel,
Clearly in the passage you quoted in Mark 3, Jesus says there is a sin that cannot be foriven. I don't understand then how you say all will be saved, while Jesus clearly saus that there are some, who if they commit this sin will not be fogiven. How do you reconcile this?

It is explained in the very same post. The only sin that is unforgivable is saying that God cannot forgive ANY sin. Again,by saying that it is unlawful or wrong or to count it as an offense or an evil thing is to be in danger of blaspheming the truth. That is why God blinds most.

Hansc

05-19-2012, 12:48 AM

The only sin that is unforgivable is saying that God cannot forgive ANY sin

Do you have any Scripture that says this?

The kingdom of God is NOT meat and drink but RIGHTEOUSNESS and PEACE and JOY in the Holy Ghost.

True, but the majority of people do not have, nor ever will have the Holy Ghost. Only those on the narrow path will be pillars in the temple of God.

The Spirit of Truth that Jesus will save all men

Certainly ALL men and women who come to Christ of their free will, will be saved, those who bu their free will reject Him, will be lost.

The TRUTH is that God (Spirit) will save all through Christ, but there are those who consider this an UNCLEAN spirit! To these people, IT IS A SIN that God will save all, and count it as an evil thing!

God will save ALL who of their free will come to Him in this life, that is what the Gospel teaches. To suggest that NONE will be lost is contrary to the Bible. This mistaken belief does not come from God, but originates from the fallen ones, who inspire people to help them promote such unscriptual notions. Yet, we know that in the End of Days, men will have itching ears, desiring to hear such things and will heap unto themselves silly teachers that will sooth and confirm their dark doctrines.

Israel

05-19-2012, 03:23 AM

Do you have any Scripture that says this?

Matthew 12:31

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Now if ALL MANNER OF SIN AND BLASPHEMIES FROM AMONG MEN SHALL BE, not might or could but SHALL OR WILL BE, from among men but blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (which is the Spirit of TRUTH that Christ is indeed savior of the world), shall not be forgiven him. For this cause we all learn this lessen in death.

True, but the majority of people do not have, nor ever will have the Holy Ghost. Only those on the narrow path will be pillars in the temple of God.

No man can say that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Ghost, but EVERY KNEE and EVERY TONGUE WILL confess Jesus as LORD. You are correct as there are but few who finds life, but for those that do are they not whole?

Matthew 9:10-12

10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.

11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matthew 20:27-28

27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Many is more than a few, unless you're trying to say that many of the few who finds life will be saved and the rest who finds life are really lost. Beloved, without the SURE foundation that all will be saved it is only confusion.

Certainly ALL men and women who come to Christ of their free will, will be saved, those who bu their free will reject Him, will be lost.

Does not your bible say that NO MAN can come to Christ unless the Father draws him? Free will is an illusion as we were all subjected to this vanity AGAINST OUR WILLS.

God will save ALL who of their free will come to Him in this life, that is what the Gospel teaches. To suggest that NONE will be lost is contrary to the Bible. This mistaken belief does not come from God, but originates from the fallen ones, who inspire people to help them promote such unscriptual notions. Yet, we know that in the End of Days, men will have itching ears, desiring to hear such things and will heap unto themselves silly teachers that will sooth and confirm their dark doctrines.

Now if God's will and desire is to save all, can the will of man stop the plans of Him who made us?

It's funny that most christians respond with a form of this verse but let's look at what should be obvious. If you who believe that Christ is Lord and are saved ALREADY don't believe in my testimony, how much less those who do not believe of whom you deem lost. But as the scripture says, who can believe our report?

Alex Smith

05-19-2012, 03:55 AM

I know you don't believe this, Alex, but God created man with free-will to choose and man never lost this ability to choose after the fall.Actually I'm a Compatibilist, so I do believe in free-will :)

God will not force himself on anyone and he certainly does not violate their will to make humanity to love Him.I agree.

This is why everyone whoever lived will not be reconciled back to God because not everyone will accept this reconciliation.I think God can see the future, and tells us what that will be in passages like 1 Corinthians 15:28.

God honors peoples choices.Depends what you mean by that... whilst it's certainly true the Prodigal Father let the son leave, I suspect there would come a time when the father would go look for him, similar to the shepherd in the Parable of the Lost Sheep. In the Bible we see God sometimes honoring peoples choices, at other times completely opposing or even overriding them when He hardens peoples' hearts for awhile.

Once you leave this natural world and enter the spiritual realm your eternal destiny has been decided.On what grounds?? If God does have a high regard for free-will, I imagine He wouldn't force people to stick to their choice made in this first, short, often uninformed, life...

Your spiritual condition decides where you spend eternity. If you have spiritual life in your spirit you spend eternity with God. If you have spiritual death in your spirit you are separated from God for eternity.I agree that our spiritual condition/life here will effect where one initially goes. e.g. those who are spiritually dead, first need a spiritual resurrection.

Also, there is only one final judgment recorded in scripture. This happens in Rev 20:11-15.I agree.

This is where Humanity's eternal destiny is determined.I think only Humanity's initial destination is determined.

Every human being who ever lived shall stand before God and give an account for their lives.I agree.

The book of life will be opened to see if your name is recorded and if it is not you experience the second death which is eternal death separation from God in the lake of fire.I agree, except I interpret eternal as qualitative word (associated with God in the age to come) without a defined duration i.e. like the Hebrew olam or Greek aionios.

There is no record after Rev 20:11-15 of God having all the guilty unbelievers who were not recorded in the book of life and thrown into the lake of fire to have them retrialed at the judgment seat to look again for their names in the book of life. It doesn't happen and will not happen.I don't think there's a need for any retrial, Rev 20:11-15 is a unique turning point in history, starting the next stage of God's plan for Humanity. As the imagery of the Lake of Fire suggests, the next stage will be more intense. Exactly what the details are, we aren't told, however I believe we're told the eventual result in passages like 1 Corinthians 15:28.

Hansc why would the devil want me to promote the belief that he will repent & worship God? Surely if any doctrine is "dark", it's that the devil & many others will go on for ever cursing God :(

The Unaltered Gospel

05-19-2012, 06:51 AM

Actually I'm a Compatibilist, so I do believe in free-will :)

I agree.

I think God can see the future, and tells us what that will be in passages like 1 Corinthians 15:28.

Depends what you mean by that... whilst it's certainly true the Prodigal Father let the son leave, I suspect there would come a time when the father would go look for him, similar to the shepherd in the Parable of the Lost Sheep. In the Bible we see God sometimes honoring peoples choices, at other times completely opposing or even overriding them when He hardens peoples' hearts for awhile.

On what grounds?? If God does have a high regard for free-will, I imagine He wouldn't force people to stick to their choice made in this first, short, often uninformed, life...

I agree that our spiritual condition/life here will effect where one initially goes. e.g. those who are spiritually dead, first need a spiritual resurrection.

I agree.

I think only Humanity's initial destination is determined.

I agree.

I agree, except I interpret eternal as qualitative word (associated with God in the age to come) without a defined duration i.e. like the Hebrew olam or Greek aionios.

I don't think there's a need for any retrial, Rev 20:11-15 is a unique turning point in history, starting the next stage of God's plan for Humanity. As the imagery of the Lake of Fire suggests, the next stage will be more intense. Exactly what the details are, we aren't told, however I believe we're told the eventual result in passages like 1 Corinthians 15:28.

Hansc why would the devil want me to promote the belief that he will repent & worship God? Surely if any doctrine is "dark", it's that the devil & many others will go on for ever cursing God :(

If you leave 1 Cor 15:28 in context ( which you don't) 1 Cor 15:22-24 explains verse 28. Verse 23 They that are Christ's at his coming will be resurrected. Not all of humanity will be Christ's at his coming. Not all of humanity will be all in all in verse 28. Only creation that was reconciled back to the Father. You fabricate verse 28 to say and mean what it doesn't same and mean to fit UR.

Rev 1:5-6 tells us that Jesus is the prince of the kings of the earth and has made believers kings and priests unto God. Therefore the kings of the earth in Rev 21:24 are the same kings described in Rev 1:5-6. (Previous believers before Rev 20:11-15 and who were found recorded in the book of life at final judgment not the kings recorded in Rev 19:19 who received the mark of the beast...were not believers and were cast into the lake of fire forever).

If you cannot confirm what you say with the word of God ( without taking scripture out of context) then where do you think it comes from, Alex?

If you cannot confirm in the word of God people coming to faith, being added to the book of life, and their exodus out of the lake of fire after the final judgment in Rev 20:11-15.. where do you think this information is coming from? Answer: It comes from seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. (1 Tim 4:1)

UR is built upon taking scripture out of context by giving false hope of spiritual life after spiritual death for those who die in spiritual death. There is absolutely NO evidence of this happening before or after Rev 20:11-15.

P.S. Satan nor the fallen angels will repent and worship God. Rev 20:10. Jude 6.

Hansc

05-19-2012, 06:54 PM

Alex

Hansc why would the devil want me to promote the belief that he will repent & worship God?

Why would the devil want a person to promote a false belief and give false hope through a distortion of the Gospel?

Alex, that has always been the devil's way. He wants to take as many people as possible to eternal perdition.

RoyS

05-19-2012, 07:16 PM

If Alex's question weren't so naive, it would be funny. What does Jesus say about Pharisaical views, and the devil? As it is, it's just sad.

Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Satan lies, pure and simple. That's his modus operandi. From the Garden to today, he will always lie. Understand that, and don't believe a word he says.

other one

05-19-2012, 09:32 PM

While Lewis is a much beloved Christian writer, he also got stuff really wrong. For example, Lewis also did NOT accept Scripture as the inerrant Word of God. That's pretty wrong, should I now listen to him on this??

If you're speaking of the NIV...... yeah, probably we should.

RoyS

05-19-2012, 09:43 PM

Ah, Other One, do you think C.S. Lewis was reading the NIV translation?

other one

05-19-2012, 09:44 PM

If Alex's question weren't so naive, it would be funny. What does Jesus say about Pharisaical views, and the devil? As it is, it's just sad.

Satan lies, pure and simple. That's his modus operandi. From the Garden to today, he will always lie. Understand that, and don't believe a word he says.

You have a serious misconception of Satan that is not spiritually healthy. I would disagree that everything he says is a lie. If it were so it would make it much easier to deal with him. he will tell you truths that you never even thought about to gain your confidence and is so smooth about the actual lies that it is very hard to tell the difference. His best lies are actually mis directed truths that he gets you to think he's talking about something else when he tells you of a truth.

Take the garden that you mention..... Eve had just told him that God said that they would die if they even touched the friut..... and Satan replied that you surely will not die...... and technically he was not lieing, for touching the fruit was not part of the command of no eating the fruit.
It was Eve that misapplied what Satan said to the eating of the fruit and she was deceived into eating it...... and that's why the actual sin was put at Adam's feet and not hers.

But my point is that technically Satan did not lie to her.

RoyS

05-19-2012, 10:09 PM

You have a serious misconception of Satan that is not spiritually healthy. I would disagree that everything he says is a lie. If it were so it would make it much easier to deal with him. he will tell you truths that you never even thought about to gain your confidence and is so smooth about the actual lies that it is very hard to tell the difference. His best lies are actually mis directed truths that he gets you to think he's talking about something else when he tells you of a truth.

Take the garden that you mention..... Eve had just told him that God said that they would die if they even touched the friut..... and Satan replied that you surely will not die...... and technically he was not lieing, for touching the fruit was not part of the command of no eating the fruit.
It was Eve that misapplied what Satan said to the eating of the fruit and she was deceived into eating it...... and that's why the actual sin was put at Adam's feet and not hers.

But my point is that technically Satan did not lie to her.
You are buying into Satan's lies. READ your Bible. Did Adam and Eve die that very day that they ate the fruit? No, not physically; they died spiritually, because they disobeyed God. If you want to believe that Satan 'didn't lie', you are in serious trouble. I will pray for your soul.
BTW, how do you reconcile Christ's words in John 8? Was Christ lying?

Titus

05-19-2012, 10:16 PM

It is explained in the very same post. The only sin that is unforgivable is saying that God cannot forgive ANY sin. Again,by saying that it is unlawful or wrong or to count it as an offense or an evil thing is to be in danger of blaspheming the truth. That is why God blinds most.The unforgivable sin according to the passage you posted is attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan. For this there is no forgiveness. This is what Jesus said.

RoyS

05-19-2012, 10:22 PM

Armor up, my brethren; we have some of Satan's henchmen in our midst.

Hansc

05-19-2012, 10:50 PM

If you're speaking of the NIV...... yeah, probably we should.

Sam, I think Lewis was probably most familar with the KJV. I think he was still a good Christian writer, just mistaken on this point.

Hansc

05-19-2012, 10:58 PM

You have a serious misconception of Satan that is not spiritually healthy. I would disagree that everything he says is a lie. If it were so it would make it much easier to deal with him. he will tell you truths that you never even thought about to gain your confidence and is so smooth about the actual lies that it is very hard to tell the difference. His best lies are actually mis directed truths that he gets you to think he's talking about something else when he tells you of a truth.

Take the garden that you mention..... Eve had just told him that God said that they would die if they even touched the friut..... and Satan replied that you surely will not die...... and technically he was not lieing, for touching the fruit was not part of the command of no eating the fruit.
It was Eve that misapplied what Satan said to the eating of the fruit and she was deceived into eating it...... and that's why the actual sin was put at Adam's feet and not hers.

But my point is that technically Satan did not lie to her.

Sam, you have probably heard that old saying that "you have to bait the trap with good meat to catch the prey." I think that's true here. We see the best most effective cults promoting just enough "truth" to make a person feel religious, but stopping just short of actually getting saved.

So in a way it depends on how a person looks at it. There can be enough little truths in a belief system to make it seem right, but in totality it falls short of salvation. So on one hand we can say it contains some accurate sayings, but overall it end result is not truth but a lie.

We see this with Abraham, he lied to Pharoah, but didn't actually lie to Pharoah.

In sum, we can see that a lot of little truths can so be woven together to actually end up as a lie.

Israel

05-20-2012, 12:33 AM

The unforgivable sin according to the passage you posted is attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan. For this there is no forgiveness. This is what Jesus said.

Let's see if you do. ... If someone were to perform a great miracle in the name of Jesus, and someone else does the SAME miracle in the name of Allah, what do you see? Another god perhaps?

Israel

05-20-2012, 12:46 AM

Armor up, my brethren; we have some of Satan's henchmen in our midst.

1 Corinthians 7:34-39

34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

35 And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.

36 But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.

37 Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.

38 So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.

39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

After death, the spirit of a person is free to marry another.

RoyS

05-20-2012, 01:57 AM

1 Corinthians 7:34-39

34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

35 And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.

36 But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.

37 Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.

38 So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.

39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

After death, the spirit of a person is free to marry another.
Do you think I'm unaware that Satan knows scripture? Get thee behind me. Your post has absolutely nothing to do with the OP of this thread.

Israel

05-20-2012, 02:33 AM

Do you think I'm unaware that Satan knows scripture? Get thee behind me.

Listen to what you're saying. I'm satan because I KNOW my God will succeed in saving all, but you bow to a god that will destroy MANY. What makes you so better than the many? You believe or have faith in a name? Please! May that god in that carnal mind of yours be cast out when you die. For the wages of sin is death! Tell me who doesn't collect their wages at the end of the day?

I tell you of a truth that you are in danger of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but you are blind and know not what you do.

If a sinner dies a sinner, is he raised again still a sinner? Or will all things be NEW as the bible states?

You all get off your high horse, God is not a christian but a Spirit!

RoyS

05-20-2012, 02:44 AM

Listen to what you're saying. I'm satan because I KNOW my God will succeed in saving all, but you bow to a god that will destroy MANY. What makes you so better than the many? You believe or have faith in a name? Please! May that god in that carnal mind of yours be cast out when you die. For the wages of sin is death! Tell me who doesn't collect their wages at the end of the day?

I tell you of a truth that you are in danger of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but you are blind and know not what you do.

If a sinner dies a sinner, is he raised again still a sinner? Or will all things be NEW as the bible states?

You all get off your high horse, God is not a christian but a Spirit!
Yawn. You are sadly ignorant of God's word, yet you proclaim loudly. Satan has blinded you.

Israel

05-20-2012, 03:19 AM

Yawn. You are sadly ignorant of God's word, yet you proclaim loudly. Satan has blinded you.

We can quote scriptures all day long. The difference is that why you speak from memory, what I speak is given to me for remembrance. He puts in my mouth what I should say.

Now man of God, gird yourself! If no amount of good works can earn you heaven, then why do you hold on to the notion that some about of bad works can earn you hell?

Psalms 90:3

3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

Did you catch that man of God? The Lord turns man over to DESTRUCTION then says RETURN!

1 Corinthians 5:4-5

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit (wife freed by the death of her husband as explained earlier) may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

How about that time man of God?

I asked a question and I'll ask it again. If one performs a miracle in the name of Jesus and someone else performs the SAME miracle in the name of Allah, what do you see?

That spirit is no better than a racist who discriminates simply because of color!

RoyS

05-20-2012, 03:32 AM

We can quote scriptures all day long. The difference is that why you speak from memory, what I speak is given to me for remembrance. He puts in my mouth what I should say.

Now man of God, gird yourself! If no amount of good works can earn you heaven, then why do you hold on to the notion that some about of bad works can earn you hell?

Psalms 90:3

3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

Did you catch that man of God? The Lord turns man over to DESTRUCTION then says RETURN!

1 Corinthians 5:4-5

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit (wife freed by the death of her husband as explained earlier) may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

How about that time man of God?

I asked a question and I'll ask it again. If one performs a miracle in the name of Jesus and someone else performs the SAME miracle in the name of Allah, what do you see?

That spirit is no better than a racist who discriminates simply because of color!
I reiterate: you are blinded by Satan, and you bow to his wishes. 'Allah' is not the God of Abraham and Isaac. He is a made up god of the pretender, Mohammad. No matter how many verses you cherry pick from scripture, you can't make universalisim true. Call me all the names you want; it doesn't bother me.

Hansc

05-20-2012, 03:33 AM

Now if ALL MANNER OF SIN AND BLASPHEMIES FROM AMONG MEN SHALL BE, not might or could but SHALL OR WILL BE,

You falsely assume this to be automatic, it's not. Sin is only forgiven if the person repents and asks for forgiveness, if not then they remain in their sin. So, certainly all who repent SHALL have their sin forgiven, those who do not repent--- do not.

from among men but blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (which is the Spirit of TRUTH that Christ is indeed savior of the world), shall not be forgiven him

That's not it at all, you are completely mistaken. The sin against the Holy Spirit is to intentionally attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil.

No man can say that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Ghost, but EVERY KNEE and EVERY TONGUE WILL confess Jesus as LORD

One of your big problems is that you pull verses out of context and then fit the meaning from one context into another. Naturally this leads to a big mess and a lot of misunderstanding as evidenced by your posts.

Yes, when a person confesses Christ as Lord and receives Him, they are saved. That is one context. It is the context of salvation.

However, at the time of the end, when the final battle is over, knees will bow and have no choice but to acknowledge Christ as victor. That is another context and is not the confession that comes from repentance but rather an acknowledgement that Christ has won. In your confussion you mistake one for the other, failing to understand the clear distinction between willingly receiving Christ as Lord and acknowledging defeat at His hand. There is a big difference.

Many is more than a few, unless you're trying to say that many of the few who finds life will be saved and the rest who finds life are really lost.

This is a pretty non-sensical statement.

Yes, many is more than a few. Does anyone think otherwise?

many of the few who finds life will be saved

Another silly statement, actually all who find life are saved. Finding life is really just another way of saying that a person got saved.

the rest who finds life are really lost

This is like saying that the rest that got saved are really lost. Yet another non-sense saying. Perhaps you have such difficulty understanding these matters because you cannot put your thinking into clear coherant sentences?

Now if God's will and desire is to save all, can the will of man stop the plans of Him who made us?

Because of the gift of free will you see the will of God for individuals thwarted all the time. God wants all to be saved NOW, but most aren't. Lots of things happen in lots of lives that is not the will of God.

To be honest:

it is NOT the will of God for you to promote such a devilish doctrine,
and yet you still do.

It is NOT the will of God for you to listen to the doctrine of fallen spirits,
and yet, you have been.

It is NOT the will of God for you to ramble in nearly incoherant sentences,
and yet you frequently do.

But as the scripture says, who can believe our report?

Just because people don't believe you does not mean that what you say is true---which is what you imply.

Maybe people don't believe you because,
what you say is contrary to the Bible.

Maybe people don't believe you because,
you make no sense.

Maybe people don't believe you because,
you came across as a really poor thinker.

Maybe people don't believe you because,
you show a serious lack of reading comprehension.

Israel

05-20-2012, 03:51 AM

I reiterate: you are blinded by Satan, and you bow to his wishes. 'Allah' is not the God of Abraham and Isaac. He is a made up god of the pretender, Mohammad. No matter how many verses you cherry pick from scripture, you can't make universalisim true. Call me all the names you want; it doesn't bother me.

No names. Christians say that muslims are of satan and muslims vice versa, but if satan casts out satan how then can his kingdom stand? One miracle done by the true God and the other by satan?? I thought your bible states that an idol is nothing in the world and that all power comes from god?

RoyS

05-20-2012, 03:57 AM

No names. Christians say that muslims are of satan and muslims vice versa, but if satan casts out satan how then can his kingdom stand? One miracle done by the true God and the other by satan?? I thought your bible states that an idol is nothing in the world and that all power comes from god?
Lol. You already called me a racist. Choose the God you will serve; there is only One. Satan 'casts out' nothing; he has no power and he has no kingdom. Get your scripture right.

Israel

05-20-2012, 04:40 AM

You falsely assume this to be automatic, it's not. Sin is only forgiven if the person repents and asks for forgiveness, if not then they remain in their sin. So, certainly all who repent SHALL have their sin forgiven, those who do not repent--- do not.

Does your bible say that Jesus took away the sins of the world? Did this happen before you were born? I know I wasn't, lol. Sin did receive a fatal wound, but it lives on anyway in the hearts of those who deceive themselves.

That's not it at all, you are completely mistaken. The sin against the Holy Spirit is to intentionally attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil.

Please show me where.

One of your big problems is that you pull verses out of context and then fit the meaning from one context into another. Naturally this leads to a big mess and a lot of misunderstanding as evidenced by your posts.

Yes, when a person confesses Christ as Lord and receives Him, they are saved. That is one context. It is the context of salvation.

However, at the time of the end, when the final battle is over, knees will bow and have no choice but to acknowledge Christ as victor. That is another context and is not the confession that comes from repentance but rather an acknowledgement that Christ has won. In your confussion you mistake one for the other, failing to understand the clear distinction between willingly receiving Christ as Lord and acknowledging defeat at His hand. There is a big difference.

I was real good at balancing equations in high school so let's apply some of that teaching.

The bible says that NO MAN can call Jesus Lord unless he was influence by the Holy Ghost + EVERY MAN will confess Jesus as Lord (which again they can only do but by the Holy Ghost)= ALL MEN SAVED at that time.

This is a pretty non-sensical statement.

Yes, many is more than a few. Does anyone think otherwise?

Another silly statement, actually all who find life are saved. Finding life is really just another way of saying that a person got saved.

This is like saying that the rest that got saved are really lost. Yet another non-sense saying. Perhaps you have such difficulty understanding these matters because you cannot put your thinking into clear coherant sentences?

But this is what you're in fact saying.

YOU say: only a few finds life.
JESUS says: those that find life are whole and need no physician.

YOU say: many will die lost forever.
JESUS says: He gave His life for the MANY and seeks those who are lost.

Because of the gift of free will you see the will of God for individuals thwarted all the time. God wants all to be saved NOW, but most aren't. Lots of things happen in lots of lives that is not the will of God.

To be honest:

it is NOT the will of God for you to promote such a devilish doctrine,
and yet you still do.

It is NOT the will of God for you to listen to the doctrine of fallen spirits,
and yet, you have been.

It is NOT the will of God for you to ramble in nearly incoherant sentences,
and yet you frequently do.

Just because people don't believe you does not mean that what you say is true---which is what you imply.

Daniel 4:34-35

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Maybe people don't believe you because,
what you say is contrary to the Bible.

Maybe people don't believe you because,
you make no sense.

Maybe people don't believe you because,
you came across as a really poor thinker.

Maybe people don't believe you because,
you show a serious lack of reading comprehension.

I do not do this for people to believe me. Only to witness to the truth. The whole world can call me a fool, and they will. But in the end I KNOW we are all victorious in Christ! And as far as what I teach:

1 Timothy 4:10-11

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, WHO IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.

11 These things command and teach.

Israel

05-20-2012, 04:48 AM

Lol. You already called me a racist. Choose the God you will serve; there is only One. Satan 'casts out' nothing; he has no power and he has no kingdom. Get your scripture right.

I didn't call you a racist, I don't even know you. I said that the spirit you are under is no better than that of a racist who judges a man inferior simply because of color. Again one miracle performed by a christian is cool to you. But the same miracle done by a muslim and it's satan??? It's the same miracle!!!

The Unaltered Gospel

05-20-2012, 06:24 AM

Listen to what you're saying. I'm satan because I KNOW my God will succeed in saving all, but you bow to a god that will destroy MANY. What makes you so better than the many? You believe or have faith in a name? Please! May that god in that carnal mind of yours be cast out when you die. For the wages of sin is death! Tell me who doesn't collect their wages at the end of the day?

I tell you of a truth that you are in danger of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but you are blind and know not what you do.

If a sinner dies a sinner, is he raised again still a sinner? Or will all things be NEW as the bible states?

You all get off your high horse, God is not a christian but a Spirit!

Yes, a sinner will be raised a sinner if he dies a sinner. Dan 12:2;John 5:29; Acts 24:15.

John 5:29
9 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Israel

05-20-2012, 07:15 AM

Yes, a sinner will be raised a sinner if he dies a sinner. Dan 12:2;John 5:29; Acts 24:15.

John 5:29
9 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 5:24

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I have eternal life NOW as I have already crucified the flesh. I reign with Christ NOW for 1000 years or my day with the Lord. The many who are dead in sins will not live again until the 1000 years are finished. But of a truth where are we all now?

Colossians 3:1

3 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Again,

Ephesians 4:4-8

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

We all sit with Christ but those deemed lost will be rejected or again turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. These will be raised according to the pattern of jubilee layed, out in the law.

The Unaltered Gospel

05-20-2012, 07:30 AM

John 5:24

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I have eternal life NOW as I have already crucified the flesh. I reign with Christ NOW for 1000 years or my day with the Lord. The many who are dead in sins will not live again until the 1000 years are finished. But of a truth where are we all now?

Colossians 3:1

3 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Again,

Ephesians 4:4-8

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

We all sit with Christ but those deemed lost will be rejected or again turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. These will be raised according to the pattern of jubilee layed, out in the law.

Your doctrine is foreign to the bible, Israel. Every pattern in the OT was a type and shadow of things to come in the NT. ( feasts, sacrifices, jubilee) Jesus has fulfilled the OT and it has been replaced by the NT. Jesus is the fulfillment of the OT jubilee to all who believe in him.

Israel

05-20-2012, 11:45 AM

Your doctrine is foreign to the bible, Israel. Every pattern in the OT was a type and shadow of things to come in the NT. ( feasts, sacrifices, jubilee) Jesus has fulfilled the OT and it has been replaced by the NT. Jesus is the fulfillment of the OT jubilee to all who believe in him.

It's amazing the confusion I see all over the world! You quote the answer to my own "strange" doctrine.

Leviticus 25:8-12

8 And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years.

9 Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.

10 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.

11 A jubile shall that fiftieth year be unto you: ye shall not sow, neither reap that which groweth of itself in it, nor gather the grapes in it of thy vine undressed.

12 For it is the jubile; it shall be holy unto you: ye shall eat the increase thereof out of the field.

13 In the year of this jubile ye shall return every man unto his possession.

Every man will return to his own possession. AND WE WILL EAT THE INCREASE OUT OF THE FIELD.

What is the field? The world!

Now let's see what Jesus did for us to this point.

23-55

23 The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine, for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.

24 And in all the land of your possession ye shall grant a redemption for the land.

25 If thy brother be waxen poor, and hath sold away some of his possession, and if any of his kin come to redeem it, then shall he redeem that which his brother sold.

26 And if the man have none to redeem it, and himself be able to redeem it;

27 Then let him count the years of the sale thereof, and restore the overplus unto the man to whom he sold it; that he may return unto his possession.

28 But if he be not able to restore it to him, then that which is sold shall remain in the hand of him that hath bought it until the year of jubile: and in the jubile it shall go out, and he shall return unto his possession.

29 And if a man sell a dwelling house in a walled city, then he may redeem it within a whole year after it is sold; within a full year may he redeem it.

30 And if it be not redeemed within the space of a full year, then the house that is in the walled city shall be established for ever to him that bought it throughout his generations: it shall not go out in the jubile.

31 But the houses of the villages which have no wall round about them shall be counted as the fields of the country: they may be redeemed, and they shall go out in the jubile.

32 Notwithstanding the cities of the Levites, and the houses of the cities of their possession, may the Levites redeem at any time.

33 And if a man purchase of the Levites, then the house that was sold, and the city of his possession, shall go out in the year of jubile: for the houses of the cities of the Levites are their possession among the children of Israel.

34 But the field of the suburbs of their cities may not be sold; for it is their perpetual possession.

35 And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

36 Take thou no usury of him, or increase: but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee.

37 Thou shalt not give him thy money upon usury, nor lend him thy victuals for increase.

38 I am the Lord your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, to give you the land of Canaan, and to be your God.

39 And if thy brother that dwelleth by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee; thou shalt not compel him to serve as a bondservant:

40 But as an hired servant, and as a sojourner, he shall be with thee, and shall serve thee unto the year of jubile.

41 And then shall he depart from thee, both he and his children with him, and shall return unto his own family, and unto the possession of his fathers shall he return.

42 For they are my servants, which I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: they shall not be sold as bondmen.

43 Thou shalt not rule over him with rigour; but shalt fear thy God.

44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

47 And if a sojourner or stranger wax rich by thee, and thy brother that dwelleth by him wax poor, and sell himself unto the stranger or sojourner by thee, or to the stock of the stranger's family:

48 After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him:

49 Either his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself.

50 And he shall reckon with him that bought him from the year that he was sold to him unto the year of jubile: and the price of his sale shall be according unto the number of years, according to the time of an hired servant shall it be with him.

51 If there be yet many years behind, according unto them he shall give again the price of his redemption out of the money that he was bought for.

52 And if there remain but few years unto the year of jubile, then he shall count with him, and according unto his years shall he give him again the price of his redemption.

53 And as a yearly hired servant shall he be with him: and the other shall not rule with rigour over him in thy sight.

54 And if he be not redeemed in these years, then he shall go out in the year of jubile, both he, and his children with him.

55 For unto me the children of Israel are servants; they are my servants whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Through our kinsman redeemer (Jesus) we have access to acquire our possession (eternal life) now on an individual level. You must "pay" however as all that I gained in my years I count as a loss that I may gain Christ!

RoyS

05-20-2012, 02:36 PM

I didn't call you a racist, I don't even know you. I said that the spirit you are under is no better than that of a racist who judges a man inferior simply because of color. Again one miracle performed by a christian is cool to you. But the same miracle done by a muslim and it's satan??? It's the same miracle!!!
I judge no one; that's not my job. Islam is a false religion, as are ALL religions that are not centered on God. Tell me, was Jesus just a prophet? If you deny the Son, you deny the Father.

Israel

05-20-2012, 05:46 PM

I judge no one; that's not my job. Islam is a false religion, as are ALL religions that are not centered on God. Tell me, was Jesus just a prophet? If you deny the Son, you deny the Father.

You are correct as ALL religions are false. God does not dwell in neither a synagogue, church nor ANY building made with hands.

I know you understand that Islam is a false religion, but please answer my question. Who did the miracles????

You won't answer because of the covetousness of your own heart. Again even without regard for YOUR OWN religion, open your heart and think. If it is a joy for you have faith in Christ to the salvation of your soul and for those who believer as you do, would it not be a greater joy to God if those who are lost also come to God? Or is there a law against this. Does not your bible state that those having died is DEAD to the law. It again is for THIS reason that Christ both died and was buried and revived in that He may become Lord of both the living (who you claim to be) and the dead (who you claim they are).

Titus

05-20-2012, 06:18 PM

RoyS

05-20-2012, 06:38 PM

You are correct as ALL religions are false. God does not dwell in neither a synagogue, church nor ANY building made with hands.

I know you understand that Islam is a false religion, but please answer my question. Who did the miracles????

You won't answer because of the covetousness of your own heart. Again even without regard for YOUR OWN religion, open your heart and think. If it is a joy for you have faith in Christ to the salvation of your soul and for those who believer as you do, would it not be a greater joy to God if those who are lost also come to God? Or is there a law against this. Does not your bible state that those having died is DEAD to the law. It again is for THIS reason that Christ both died and was buried and revived in that He may become Lord of both the living (who you claim to be) and the dead (who you claim they are).
Lol. I WILL answer, my friend; you are a fool. ALL religions are false? That's not what God says. If you would take the trouble to READ a Bible, you would know this. Open your own HEAD and THINK. Stop cherry-picking verses to support universalism, when God makes it clear that not all will be saved.
Jesus Christ performed miracles. Do you have any proof that Mohammad (the child molester) came even close?

Israel

05-20-2012, 07:51 PM

Jesus came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it. That is what he said. If you think all religions are false you need to read James 1:27. If you choose to ignore God's word, there is nothing I can add to change your mind.

Yes and not one jot will by no means pass from the law until all is fulfilled. In a nutshell what this means is that we all must die to put off mortality.

James 1:27

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless (those who by law such as cain who stand afar from God) and widows (those who are in false religion not knowing Christ had rendered all man made worship profitless) in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Israel

05-20-2012, 08:12 PM

Lol. I WILL answer, my friend; you are a fool. ALL religions are false? That's not what God says. If you would take the trouble to READ a Bible, you would know this. Open your own HEAD and THINK. Stop cherry-picking verses to support universalism, when God makes it clear that not all will be saved.
Jesus Christ performed miracles. Do you have any proof that Mohammad (the child molester) came even close?

1 corinthians 1:22-26

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

For this friend, I will be a fool. You STILL didn't answer this simple question though. Put it out there. Who performed the miracle? Let me make it easier for you. Was it the one and only God who is with all and through all, or some other god that performed it?

And about Mohammad being a child molester. Have you not read that John came neither eating or drinking and they said he had a devil. The son of man came eating and drinking and they said He was a glutton and a winebibber, but wisdom is justified of her children? Abraham was a coward and a liar. Isaac was a swindler. Paul said he was the chiefest of sinners. Even Christ who knew no sin became sin for us! I will die for my sins. What sins will you die for?

RoyS

05-20-2012, 08:59 PM

1 corinthians 1:22-26

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

For this friend, I will be a fool. You STILL didn't answer this simple question though. Put it out there. Who performed the miracle? Let me make it easier for you. Was it the one and only God who is with all and through all, or some other god that performed it?

And about Mohammad being a child molester. Have you not read that John came neither eating or drinking and they said he had a devil. The son of man came eating and drinking and they said He was a glutton and a winebibber, but wisdom is justified of her children? Abraham was a coward and a liar. Isaac was a swindler. Paul said he was the chiefest of sinners. Even Christ who knew no sin became sin for us! I will die for my sins. What sins will you die for?
Again, another yawn. You copy/paste scripture, but you obviously have no knowledge of it's meaning. I'm done with you.

other one

05-20-2012, 10:07 PM

RoyS

05-20-2012, 10:18 PM

You obviously didn't read what I wrote and missed the entire point of my post.

But think as you will Roy, but I would say that if your later comment about satan's henchmen is referring to me........ shame on you. That's a rather serious accusation....
I call them as I see them (And, yes, I read EVERY post). My comment about armoring up was directed to every one of our Christian members.

Hansc

05-21-2012, 12:36 AM

Israel

one miracle performed by a christian is cool to you. But the same miracle done by a muslim and it's satan??? It's the same miracle!!!

This is simply another example of your foolishness.

Haven't you read about the manifestations the Bible calls "lying wonders?"

By which power were they performed?

When Jannes and Jambres, Pharoah's sorcerers, withstood Moses,

by which power did they perform their works?

Hansc

05-21-2012, 12:41 AM

Israel

that He may become Lord of both the living (who you claim to be) and the dead (who you claim they are).

God is the God of the living.

The Unaltered Gospel

05-21-2012, 06:12 AM

Israel

God is the God of the living.

Israel

Just want to add that Rom 14:9 is talking about Jesus being in a position to be judge over the spiritually alive and the spiritually dead. This will take place in Rev 20:11-15. Israel you have shown the ability to cut and paste scripture but shown the inability to know what those scriptures mean.

Titus

05-21-2012, 06:53 AM

Yes and not one jot will by no means pass from the law until all is fulfilled. In a nutshell what this means is that we all must die to put off mortality.

James 1:27

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless (those who by law such as cain who stand afar from God) and widows (those who are in false religion not knowing Christ had rendered all man made worship profitless) in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.So you admit then that all religions are not false.

Titus

05-21-2012, 06:57 AM

Let's see if you do. ... If someone were to perform a great miracle in the name of Jesus, and someone else does the SAME miracle in the name of Allah, what do you see? Another god perhaps?Exactly. A false god. You may have read about him. His name is satan.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Israel

05-21-2012, 11:06 AM

Israel

This is simply another example of your foolishness.

Haven't you read about the manifestations the Bible calls "lying wonders?"

By which power were they performed?

When Jannes and Jambres, Pharoah's sorcerers, withstood Moses,

by which power did they perform their works?

It was to show that God performs the work, even through serpents. Through nature it is His Spirit that operates. If I grew up in a part of the world where the bible is foreign and my parents were muslims and all I knew was the qu'ran then I would very well call God Allah!

Do you understand what I'm trying to convey? In areas dominated by buddha or hinduism, and even christianity, we all were raised in established traditions. The story of the good samaritan is very powerful in that it illustrates that is not about appearances. If you were mugged and left for dead, would you care if it were an Allah loving muslin or a buddha loving monk tended to your wounds as the story went?

Now we all understand this when it comes to racial issues. But it is not about the color of man, but the content of his character.

Just as the bible says that in a Master house, there are vessels of honor and dishonor. Again look at this principle in nature. We have clean and unclean animals. What is the purpose of unclean animals? For the most part they are scavengers that clean the earth. So too are how we are. Unclean vessels in making known the power of God scavenge the earth.

All power comes from God right? God is a Spirit that no man has seen at any time, but WE SEE EACHOTHER! Jesus said that to do unto the least of His brethren is to do unto Him. Why? Because it is the Same Spirit in all of us.

Malachi 2:10

Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

The lying wonder part comes in when we try to express what God is to the world. We must understand that both the name Allah AND the name Jesus will be burned in the fire upon the death of us all. It is the Spirit (Father) who does the works. Does not the bible say that whom the world knew as Jesus now has a name that no man knows? And that even those who knew Him after the flesh, know Him no more? Who the world knew as mohammad is dead. who it knew as hitler is dead! The world knows them no more after the flesh. In order to be in Christ we must be made new. You won't recognize these people after flesh.

Israel

05-21-2012, 03:15 PM

So you admit then that all religions are not false.

Titus 1:15-16

15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

All forms of christianity is pure to those who are pure. It provides much needed comfort and hope on a world that seems hopeless. However so does islam, buddhism, hinduism, etc. But at the same time we should not kill another because we eat (take in a particular knowledge) and someone else doesn't. Some christians go to church on sunday and some do saturday. But one group believes the other is on the highway to hell! Believe it or not but our 7 day week is CREATED by God as well! But there are those who would condemn another because of what day he worships on. For these type of people:

Romans 1:28-29

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Titus

05-21-2012, 08:40 PM

Asimple yes or no would suffice. Obviously you have trouble with giving a straightforward honest answer. You can copy and paste scripture all you want, but it reaaly doesn't tell me what you thinknor believe.
Titus 1:15-16

15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

All forms of christianity is pure to those who are pure. It provides much needed comfort and hope on a world that seems hopeless. However so does islam, buddhism, hinduism, etc. But at the same time we should not kill another because we eat (take in a particular knowledge) and someone else doesn't. Some christians go to church on sunday and some do saturday. But one group believes the other is on the highway to hell! Believe it or not but our 7 day week is CREATED by God as well! But there are those who would condemn another because of what day he worships on. For these type of people:

Romans 1:28-29

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Hansc

05-22-2012, 02:57 AM

Israel

If I grew up in a part of the world where the bible is foreign and my parents were muslims and all I knew was the qu'ran then I would very well call God Allah!

Yes, and you very well would be lost in your sin.

Do you understand what I'm trying to convey? In areas dominated by buddha or hinduism, and even christianity, we all were raised in established traditions

A tradition cannot save you, ONLY receiving Christ while still in this world can save a person. If a person passes from this world and only has his tradition, then he is lost.

All forms of christianity is pure to those who are pure. It provides much needed comfort and hope on a world that seems hopeless. However so does islam, buddhism, hinduism,

Only through Christ can a person come to God, all others lead to perdition.

Israel, you still didn't answer the question:

When Jannes and Jambres, Pharoah's sorcerers, withstood Moses,

by which power did they perform their works?

Israel

05-22-2012, 04:00 AM

Israel

Yes, and you very well would be lost in your sin.

A tradition cannot save you, ONLY receiving Christ while still in this world can save a person. If a person passes from this world and only has his tradition, then he is lost.

Only through Christ can a person come to God, all others lead to perdition.

Israel, you still didn't answer the question:

When Jannes and Jambres, Pharoah's sorcerers, withstood Moses,

by which power did they perform their works?

I'll answer it plainly then. It was none other than YHWH and no other beside Him. These people thought that horus or some other god or name performed it, just as a muslim would say the name of Allah or a christian the name of Jesus even. But these are fleshly names! How many arguments or debates can I stir up by saying the letter "j" wasn't used back then or His name is Yeshua? But it is said by who we call Jesus now, that it is the Spirit that testifies and does the works. God the Father which is a Spirit does as He pleases among us all!

So by whatever spell or god they invoked to turn their rods to serpents, it was in fact YHWH testifying by doing the work! You might say aloud or in your heart nonsense! Why would God do that, but He already answered you. He did it through Pharaoh to MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN HIS POWER THROUGHOUT ALL THE EARTH!

In your mind MANY are dead just for something that is totally out of their control. Many are lost simply because they might have never seen a bible or who's culture taught him of another name.

But no matter what name is invoked among pharaoh today, it is STILL the same Spirit that does the works.

Listen beloved, I believe too that Jesus is the way truth and life.

RoyS

05-22-2012, 04:20 AM

Psalms 19:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Romans1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
God has shown His handiwork in all things; not reading a Bible, or growing up in a different culture is not an excuse to deny the true God.

other one

05-22-2012, 08:25 AM

God has shown His handiwork in all things; not reading a Bible, or growing up in a different culture is not an excuse to deny the true God.

Do we have scripture showing where one can be saved without the knowledge of the Bible. Is there scripture showing where those people who grew up with no knoledge of Jesus can still be saved in the end?

Israel

05-22-2012, 08:45 AM

Do we have scripture showing where one can be saved without the knowledge of the Bible. Is there scripture showing where those people who grew up with no knoledge of Jesus can still be saved in the end?

If the kingdom of God is located in us all, then where would the God of that kingdom be located friend? If one is born to a small tribe in the rain forest with no access to the outside world, is it his fault if he never reads a book that says within it anyway THAT ETERNAL LIFE IS NOT FOUND WITHIN IT?

RoyS

05-22-2012, 08:52 AM

Do we have scripture showing where one can be saved without the knowledge of the Bible. Is there scripture showing where those people who grew up with no knoledge of Jesus can still be saved in the end?
Sounds a bit legalistic to me. Read Romans.

EDIT: Which translation would you require that all people read, in order to be saved? Your favorite? What does scripture tell us in John 3:16? Does it say we must read a Bible? I think not.

Hansc

05-22-2012, 03:08 PM

Israel

If the kingdom of God is located in us all

That's a mighty big "IF" and contrary to the Word. The Word teaches that the lost sinner, is a child of wrath and WITHOUT God. Hence, the Kingdom of God is NOT in the sinner. To be in the Kingdom, one must be born again, via receiving Christ.

Israel

05-22-2012, 03:59 PM

Israel

That's a mighty big "IF" and contrary to the Word. The Word teaches that the lost sinner, is a child of wrath and WITHOUT God. Hence, the Kingdom of God is NOT in the sinner. To be in the Kingdom, one must be born again, via receiving Christ.

The sinner IS lost. And it is for this reason the man of sin must be destroyed.

Acts 2:39

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ephesians 2:11-19

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

The Unaltered Gospel

05-22-2012, 04:33 PM

The sinner IS lost. And it is for this reason the man of sin must be destroyed.

Acts 2:39

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ephesians 2:11-19

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Israel

Do you even know what being Born again means? and what you have to do to be Born again? You have shown a talent of copying and pasting scriptures but are ignorant of their meaning....Lets start from the beginning to see your understanding of the Faith.

Israel

05-22-2012, 04:58 PM

Israel

Do you even know what being Born again means? and what you have to do to be Born again? You have shown a talent of copying and pasting scriptures but are ignorant of their meaning....Lets start from the beginning to see your understanding of the Faith.

Yes I know what being born again means. But in order to be born again, one must first die to the life he now has. And if by faith you mean the statement posted in the thread? That is but words on paper. Faith comes by hearing, and that by the word of God.

Deuteronomy 6:3-5

3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

2KnowHim

05-22-2012, 06:03 PM

Matthew 5:33-37

33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

We are told not to make an oath as EVERYTHING belongs to God. And as we ALL on this site can agree on is that God holds His word above EVERYTHING. And what did He do with it?

Isaiah 45:22-23

22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

God sworn by Himself because there is NONE greater THAT EVERY KNEE WILL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE WILL CONFESS!

Now if God swore this, then surely He is able to perform it, I mean after all, EVERYTHING is His!

But how do you all see this? Are we all bowing and confessing lovingly or is this something else?

Sounds Like The Good News to me, Brother.

All will bow and confess, IN LOVE, God is Love, now my natural mind cannot comprehend this, but, by faith I receive it with open arms. True Faith in Christ is believing what we cannot see, therefore it must be by faith that we embrace it.

I wasn't there to see Him die on that cross for me, and yet by faith I know He did, and not only for me, but for the Whole world. Faith sees what the natural cannot see. So by faith I see All men lifted up and nailed to the cross with Him. All buried, and All Raised with Him.

The way I view God is the way I view others, In Love, and Mercy, The same as He views me.

Blessings:)

Hansc

05-22-2012, 06:18 PM

2knowHim

So by faith I see All men lifted up and nailed to the cross with Him. All buried, and All Raised with Him.

Only to those who receive Him gives He the power to become the children of God. Only to those who open up their hearts and let Him in, is He in them.

Those who receive Him, are counted as in Him.
Those who reject Him, are NOT in Him.

Those who receive Him are the children of God.
Those who reject Him are the children of wrath.

To receive Christ in this life is to be made alive.
To reject Christ in this life is to reamain dead.

Those who receive Him are counted as raised with Him.
Those who reject Him are counted as remaining dead.

Those who receive Him are on the narrow path.
Those who reject Him are on the broad path.

Less are on the narrow path.
More are on the broad path.

Not all will be saved.
Not all will be lost.

Not all are sheep.
Not all are goats.

One road leads to heaven.
Many roads lead to Hell.

You choose, here and now.

2KnowHim

05-22-2012, 06:27 PM

Isn't Christ the one who said if I be lifted up will draw all men unto me?
We were all the children of wrath before He called us into His marvelous light, were we not?

Didn't He also say that we did not choose Him, but He chose us?
And I would have no power at all if it were not given to me from above.

Just because you see (in the flesh) that all are not saved here and now, and that here and now is the only time we have to "choose",
Tells me you've not seen anything in The Spirit, because if you did you would see things through His eyes and not your own.

Blessings

Hansc

05-22-2012, 06:53 PM

We were all the children of wrath before He called us into His marvelous light, were we not?

If a person has not received Christ, then they are still a child of wrath and still lost. It isn't automatic, it requires believing and receiving.
If you don't believe, and receive then you are lost.

Just because you see (in the flesh) that all are not saved here and now, and that here and now is the only time we have to "choose",
Tells me you've not seen anything in The Spirit, because if you did you would see things through His eyes and not your own.

We can argue about what can or cannot be seen in the spirit, but the written Word is clear, only those who believe are saved, those who believe NOT are lost.

Whatever you "think" you may see in the spirit, is always to be judged by the written Word. As such, what you are saying is well out of line with the written Word.

Israel

05-22-2012, 08:11 PM

If a person has not received Christ, then they are still a child of wrath and still lost. It isn't automatic, it requires believing and receiving.
If you don't believe, and receive then you are lost.

We can argue about what can or cannot be seen in the spirit, but the written Word is clear, only those who believe are saved, those who believe NOT are lost.

Whatever you "think" you may see in the spirit, is always to be judged by the written Word. As such, what you are saying is well out of line with the written Word.

1 John 3:1-2

3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

By sight, we all die a sinners death, beloved.

A murderer has no part with Christ. But upon death, he is NO LONGER a murderer!

Benjie

05-22-2012, 08:20 PM

1 John 3:1-2

3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

By sight, we all die a sinners death, beloved.

A murderer has no part with Christ. But upon death, he is NO LONGER a murderer!Funny, the truth is right in front of your eyes, yet you still can't see it.

Methinks you should read the book in it's entirety instead of cherry-picking lines here and there.

Israel

05-22-2012, 08:26 PM

Funny, the truth is right in front of your eyes, yet you still can't see it.

Methinks you should read the book in it's entirety instead of cherry-picking lines here and there.

Will you die? And if this happens to you, why?

RoyS

05-22-2012, 08:31 PM

Hey, Benjie, some people just can't see truth. They wouldn't know it if it came up and bit them on the *ss. It's sad.

2KnowHim

05-22-2012, 10:00 PM

Funny, the truth is right in front of your eyes, yet you still can't see it.

Methinks you should read the book in it's entirety instead of cherry-picking lines here and there.

Truth is found in Relationship with The Father, not in a book, The book only confirms what has been revealed IN YOU.
The bible has become an Idol to many, and Relationship is cast out, God can't be limited by a book or measured.

Israel

05-22-2012, 11:51 PM

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Please understand the life in these scriptures and harden not your hearts to an image.

The law says that none of these will inherit the kingdom of God, and there are some who have been washed, sanctified and justified in the name of Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

We all claim to have faith in Jesus as Lord and fit those that are washed. But of faith in Christ:

Galatians 2:16-21

16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In trying to be justified in Christ in faith, I found myself to be a sinner, but is He a minister of sin? No!
But if I build by the works of the law, that which was destroyed by judging a man according to their works, I have made myself a transgressor. I understand that through the law, I like EVERYONE ELSE, am dead to the law! And as the law states that I die, I will die! So in being truly dead to the law in death, all men will live to serve God.

other one

05-23-2012, 05:51 AM

If the kingdom of God is located in us all, then where would the God of that kingdom be located friend? If one is born to a small tribe in the rain forest with no access to the outside world, is it his fault if he never reads a book that says within it anyway THAT ETERNAL LIFE IS NOT FOUND WITHIN IT?

You didn't answer my question..... and I do believe it's an important question both to me and to this thread.
Where is scripture that says one can go to heaven if they have never heard of Christ..... never had the chance to accept him as their Lord?

RoyS

05-23-2012, 06:41 AM

While I believe that Israel is trolling, I do think that a person can go to Heaven, even if they never read a Bible. God tells us that we can know of Him by His works; that they are manifest in the creation that He has given us. If we know the Father, we know the Son.

2KnowHim

05-23-2012, 08:01 AM

You didn't answer my question..... and I do believe it's an important question both to me and to this thread.
Where is scripture that says one can go to heaven if they have never heard of Christ..... never had the chance to accept him as their Lord?

Isa 65:1 I am inquired of by those who had not asked for Me. I am found by those who did not seek Me. I say, `Behold Me!' to a nation not calling My name."

other one

05-23-2012, 12:25 PM

have you read that whole chapter???

Israel

05-23-2012, 12:47 PM

have you read that whole chapter???

I did. It means what I've been saying. God is angered in that the SAME Spirit that performs miracles under the name of Jesus, is called beelzebub when it performs those miracles under Allah or Buddha.

other one

05-23-2012, 01:47 PM

I did. It means what I've been saying. God is angered in that the SAME Spirit that performs miracles under the name of Jesus, is called beelzebub when it performs those miracles under Allah or Buddha.

And just how does that relate to people who have never heard of Jesus being saved... which is what i asked about...

Israel

05-23-2012, 02:11 PM

And just how does that relate to people who have never heard of Jesus being saved... which is what i asked about...

Matthew 25:32-40

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Hismanysongs

05-23-2012, 02:28 PM

Matthew 25:32-40

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Lets look at the whole story, shall we:

41 “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.
42 For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink.
43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
44 “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’
45 “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’
46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”
(NLT)

Benjie

05-23-2012, 03:34 PM

Will you die? And if this happens to you, why?My physical body will perish, but I have already secured eternal life trough Christ - something that can only be done before death overtakes you.

Israel

05-23-2012, 04:02 PM

My physical body will perish, but I have already secured eternal life trough Christ - something that can only be done before death overtakes you.

So you imagine a God who says that the flesh profits nothing, having ALL power and holding ALL authority possessing eternity, TO THEN BE POWERLESS UPON THE DEATH OF THE VERY SAME PHYSICAL FLESH THAT DIED you deem lost? And please don't give me that "spirit man" died confusion. You walk and breathe by the SAME Spirit I do! So does everyone else.

Benjie

05-23-2012, 04:37 PM

So you imagine a God who says that the flesh profits nothing, having ALL power and holding ALL authority possessing eternity, TO THEN BE POWERLESS UPON THE DEATH OF THE VERY SAME PHYSICAL FLESH THAT DIED you deem lost? And please don't give me that "spirit man" died confusion. You walk and breathe by the SAME Spirit I do! So does everyone else.I don't think I understand what you are asking. Allow me to rephrase what I am hearing/reading your question to be: Do I see God as powerless to save everyone on Earth? Is this what you are asking me?

Israel

05-23-2012, 04:47 PM

Lets look at the whole story, shall we:

Matthew 27:36-44

36 And sitting down they watched him there;

37 And set up over his head his accusation written, This Is Jesus The King Of The Jews.

38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,

40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

The Unaltered Gospel

05-24-2012, 06:12 AM

Matthew 27:36-44

36 And sitting down they watched him there;

37 And set up over his head his accusation written, This Is Jesus The King Of The Jews.

38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,

40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Israel, you remind me of the person being described in 2 Peter 3:16.

2 Peter 3:16

Speaking of this as he does in all of his letters. There are some things in those [epistles of Paul] that are difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own [a]utter destruction, just as [they distort and misinterpret] the rest of the Scriptures.

Aquila

05-24-2012, 09:12 AM

Jesus didn't save both theives.

2KnowHim

05-24-2012, 01:55 PM

Jesus didn't save both theives.

Aquila,

The two on the Cross on either side of Him, is a picture of Two Natures, the one old, and the other New.
It's got nothing to do with what we see in the natural.

The same pattern is displayed starting with Cain and Abel, Jacob and Esau, Sarah and Haggar, The two manners of people in the womb of Rebekah,The Twin disciples..etc. etc....

Aquila

05-25-2012, 09:20 AM

Aquila,

The two on the Cross on either side of Him, is a picture of Two Natures, the one old, and the other New.
It's got nothing to do with what we see in the natural.

The same pattern is displayed starting with Cain and Abel, Jacob and Esau, Sarah and Haggar, The two manners of people in the womb of Rebekah,The Twin disciples..etc. etc....

I agree with the dicotomy we see running through the scripture from the beginning. But that does not change the fact that Jesus saved only one of the theives - the repentant one.

An actual event - not a myth.

2KnowHim

05-25-2012, 12:41 PM

I agree with the dicotomy we see running through the scripture from the beginning. But that does not change the fact that Jesus saved only one of the theives - the repentant one.

An actual event - not a myth.

True, on this side Jordan (death), but after he died he was no longer a thief now was he?

Not only that but, there is another circumcision made after Jordan is crossed. Jos. 5:-

Aquila

05-25-2012, 01:27 PM

True, on this side Jordan (death), but after he died he was no longer a thief now was he?

Not only that but, there is another circumcision made after Jordan is crossed. Jos. 5:-

Agreed about the meaning of Jordan. But only one crossed over with Jesus. The other refused. Otherwise we would have to say that death saves, and it does not. Many nations were on the other side of Jordan.

Point 2 - a circumcision for those born in the wilderness. What do you imply?

Israel

05-25-2012, 01:35 PM

Agreed about the meaning of Jordan. But only one crossed over with Jesus. The other refused. Otherwise we would have to say that death saves, and it does not. Many nations were on the other side of Jordan.

Point 2 - a circumcision for those born in the wilderness. What do you imply?

You fail to recognize that ALL THREE DIED A THIEVES DEATH. All men have at one point or another robbed God. Again we all show His death because we die alike.

Aquila

05-25-2012, 01:44 PM

Death itself does not save. One must be untied with Christ in HIS death and resurrection - by faith.

Israel

05-25-2012, 01:50 PM

Death itself does not save. One must be untied with Christ in HIS death and resurrection - by faith.
Again stop trying to "fit in" with established tradition. ALL men share the common knowledge that death will come. No matter how good or bad, in THIS life, only death is the reward for it. When we take off mortality (though death) we will put on immortality (through life in Christ who is Lord of living and dead).

2KnowHim

05-25-2012, 02:43 PM

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality."
1Co 15:54 Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory."
1Co 15:55 Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?
1Co 15:56 Now the sting of Death is sin, yet the power of sin is the law."
1Co 15:57 Now thanks be to God, Who is giving us the victory, through our Lord Jesus Christ."

For what He has done for us, Did He not do for All?

Behold! The Lamb of God which takes away the sin of The Whole World.

Aquila

05-25-2012, 05:52 PM

The Unaltered Gospel

05-26-2012, 06:43 AM

You know, the writer of 1Cor. believed in Jesus and his resurrection. And according to that passage the power of sin is the law. God doesn't accuse anyone but for many there is the sting of death. But in contrast, for those who are justified by faith death holds no sting, they have the gift of eternal life in Christ because they have received him. They have believed on him unto eternal life.

Israel and 2KnowHim are people who are described in 2 Peter chapter 2, Aquila. I wouldn't waste anymore of your time with them for they reject truth. All you can do is pray that God open their eyes to the truth of their error. God bless.

Israel

05-26-2012, 12:01 PM

Israel and 2KnowHim are people who are described in 2 Peter chapter 2, Aquila. I wouldn't waste anymore of your time with them for they reject truth. All you can do is pray that God open their eyes to the truth of their error. God bless.

Why do you post such wasteful information? If you are going to contribute to either the lie or the truth then kindly not participate.

We say that all will be saved because of Christ's sacrifice, but instead of learning how this is possible, you'd rather pray to God that He opens our eyes to your truth that He will only save a few and most will burn forever?

If your truth is reality then you christians are failing your mission!

The Unaltered Gospel

05-26-2012, 04:13 PM

Why do you post such wasteful information? If you are going to contribute to either the lie or the truth then kindly not participate.

We say that all will be saved because of Christ's sacrifice, but instead of learning how this is possible, you'd rather pray to God that He opens our eyes to your truth that He will only save a few and most will burn forever?

If your truth is reality then you christians are failing your mission!

Not only are you described in 2 Peter chapter 2, but Paul describes you as a person who preaches an altered Gospel in Galatians 1:6-9. People who do this God says they are accursed ( estranged from salvation). I'm not against you personally just the false doctrines and altered gospel you preach.

Also, God has already showed his love and mercy to an undeserving wicked world by sending His Son to the cross to provide provision for salvation to whosoever wants it by faith. God honors human choices. He doesn't violate anyone's will to receive this salvation by faith. God says choose life or death...Choose Life through Jesus!

Israel

05-26-2012, 05:34 PM

Not only are you described in 2 Peter chapter 2, but Paul describes you as a person who preaches an altered Gospel in Galatians 1:6-9. People who do this God says they are accursed ( estranged from salvation). I'm not against you personally just the false doctrines and altered gospel you preach.

Also, God has already shwed his love and mercy to an undeserving wicked world by sending His Son to the cross to provide provision for salvation to whosoever wants it by faith. God honors human choices. He doesn't violate anyone's will to receive this salvation by faith. God says choose life or death...Choose Life through Jesus!

Do you see me, when this world is finally done away with for you and for me, standing in victory with you brother? If so then how is my message and gospel any less holy than yours? If it is a glorious thing to bring YOU to salvation of whom Christ died while you were yet a sinner, how more glorious for God for YOU to then do in like manner and die for them while they are still yet sinners!

The Unaltered Gospel

05-26-2012, 05:43 PM

Do you see me, when this world is finally done away with for you and for me, standing in victory with you brother? If so then how is my message and gospel any less holy than yours? If it is a glorious thing to bring YOU to salvation of whom Christ died while you were yet a sinner, how more glorious for God for YOU to then do in like manner and die for them while they are still yet sinners!

Ummm, you need to read 2 Peter chapter 2 and Galatians 1:6-9 for your answer. If you leave 2 Peter chapter 2 and Galatians 1:6-9 in context and this describes you( which it does) then absolutely not will I stand with you in victory.

Also read Matt 18:1-8 for the consequences of teaching false doctrine to the point of shipwrecking ones faith..very serious...

Israel

05-26-2012, 06:55 PM

Ummm, you need to read 2 Peter chapter 2 and Galatians 1:6-9 for your answer. If you leave 2 Peter chapter 2 and Galatians 1:6-9 in context and this describes you( which it does) then absolutely not will I stand with you in victory.

Also read Matt 18:1-8 for the consequences of teaching false doctrine to the point of shipwrecking ones faith..very serious...

That's not what I asked you brother. I know what the book says. But it also states in the very same book that eternal life is NOT IN THE BOOK! It's in YOU!

I ask you again to expose the evil in your own heart before the congregation. DO you see me victorious with you having believed with the whole of my being that since we all don't deserve it, God has given it to all?

2KnowHim

05-26-2012, 08:11 PM

Aquila

05-26-2012, 09:38 PM

2KnowHim said:

"You know, I was just thinking,....do we even realize the torment and hell that those that "christians" call doomed for all eternity, such as Hitler, Nero,......etc....were in while in this earth. I mean think about it, they were only manifesting what was within them, such as many do today. But All Praise be to Him, to the pure All things are pure, but to the defiled, even their conscience is defiled."

Aquila replies:

Hitler and Nero were probably Universalists. They weren't atheist. So they were most likely thinking that God wouldn't send them to eternal torment, no matter what they did. After all, how could God send ME to hell?

The Unaltered Gospel

05-26-2012, 10:12 PM

That's not what I asked you brother. I know what the book says. But it also states in the very same book that eternal life is NOT IN THE BOOK! It's in YOU!

I ask you again to expose the evil in your own heart before the congregation. DO you see me victorious with you having believed with the whole of my being that since we all don't deserve it, God has given it to all?

Reread my last response and actually read 2 Peter chapter 2 and Galatians 1:6-9 and you would not have to ask me the same question again. You will not be victorious according to 2 Peter chapter 2 and Galatians 1:6-9 but damned if you continue your current path of error.

Israel

05-26-2012, 11:06 PM

You know, I was just thinking,....do we even realize the torment and hell that those that "christians" call doomed for all eternity, such as Hitler, Nero,......etc....were in while in this earth. I mean think about it, they were only manifesting what was within them, such as many do today. But All Praise be to Him, to the pure All things are pure, but to the defiled, even their conscience is defiled.

Isn't it true that what we sow we reap, can you imagine the suffering that they partook of when here in the flesh.
But............are they still who they were when they were here? I think not.

Again we can only give, what we have. No matter what that might be.

After this week's firestorm over Will Smith's remarks on Hitler, which he explains were taken out of context, the Anti-Defamation League has welcomed and accepted his clarifying statement.

The I Am Legend star was quoted in the Daily Record, a Scottish newspaper as saying, "Even Hitler didn't wake up going, 'Let me do the most evil thing I can do today.' I think he woke up in the morning and using a twisted, backwards logic, he set out to do what he thought was 'good.'"

What got left out in the firestorm was that the quote was used as an example to back up the journalist's hypothesis that, "Remarkably, Will believes everyone is basically good," and it was not an assessment by Smith that Hitler was a good person, as many Web sites alleged.

On Monday, Smith issued a statement regarding the misrepresentation of his remarks: "It is an awful and disgusting lie. It speaks to the dangerous power of an ignorant person with a pen. I am incensed and infuriated to have to respond to such ludicrous misinterpretation."

He goes on to state, "Adolf Hitler was a vile, heinous, vicious killer responsible for one of the greatest acts of evil committed on this planet."

Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director, praised Smith for taking "immediate steps to clarify his words and unequivocally condemn Hitler as an evil person. We would have expected no less from a celebrity of his standing in the strata of Hollywood stardom.

"If anything, this episode serves as a reminder of the power of words, and how words can be twisted by those with hate and bigotry in their hearts to suit their own world view. This is why all celebrities bear a special responsibility to weigh their words carefully, and an obligation to speak out against racism and bigotry whenever even a whiff of it appears, as Will Smith has done in this instance."

Aquila

05-27-2012, 09:41 PM

Hansc

05-28-2012, 01:53 AM

As I read this I just see you giving sympathy for men like Hitler and Nero - and that is just the very same thing as sympathy for the devil.

And in your defense there is no mention of the thousands of innocents that these men tortured, mutilated, raped, crucified and murdered.

And you have the gall to condemn "christians" for saying that such horrors like Hitler and Nero are doomed for all eternity?

You condemn the righteous and try to justify the wicked.

Sadly, when people like Israel and 2KnowHim, reject the light of the Gospel, the darkness that falls upon their twisted thinking is all the more dark. It's incredible to watch the twists and turns in their distorted thinking in a vain effort to justify their bizarre and devilish reasoning.

Israel

05-28-2012, 02:29 AM

Sadly, when people like Israel and 2KnowHim, reject the light of the Gospel, the darkness that falls upon their twisted thinking is all the more dark. It's incredible to watch the twists and turns in their distorted thinking in a vain effort to justify their bizarre and devilish reasoning.

Do you man of God, who is LOVE really believe in your heart that it is VAIN to believe all will one day know God and live? But you believe that it's righteous that many will die. If this is true and death is so righteous, then why is death destroyed in the end?

2KnowHim

05-28-2012, 07:33 AM

Hansc,

Sadly, when people like Israel and 2KnowHim, reject the light of the Gospel, the darkness that falls upon their twisted thinking is all the more dark. It's incredible to watch the twists and turns in their distorted thinking in a vain effort to justify their bizarre and devilish reasoning.

If you were truly abiding in Him, you would not see darkness at all. For in Him there is no darkness, nor shadow of turning, and if the light in you is dark, then how great is that darkness?

Aquila,

As I read this I just see you giving sympathy for men like Hitler and Nero - and that is just the very same thing as sympathy for the devil.

And in your defense there is no mention of the thousands of innocents that these men tortured, mutilated, raped, crucified and murdered.

And you have the gall to condemn "christians" for saying that such horrors like Hitler and Nero are doomed for all eternity?

You condemn the righteous and try to justify the wicked.

I'm sure that is what you see, your words reveal your heart. For out of the Heart the mouth speaks.

1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

How long will you hold dead men guilty?

Aquila

05-28-2012, 11:08 AM

2KnowHim

05-28-2012, 01:01 PM

They've taken universalism a step farther by saying that the lake of fire is now, in this life, and we are all in it. Then, after death everyone gets out. They lump all humanity into the same boat. I don't see how that Uni teaching could be carried out any further or get more extreme.

We didn't do that God did, in Christ when He was nailed to the Cross, All were nailed with Him, and when He was buried All were buried with Him, and when He rose All rose with Him. We don't see after the flesh, but in the spirit, that's where our Faith is at, in Christ, and what He accomplished not in man's choice, or what appears to you to be choice.

But we live in extreme times - everything is being summed up.

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
(Rev 22:11 KJV)

Yes, and why do you suppose that is?

Benjie

05-31-2012, 04:15 AM

I don't think I understand what you are asking. Allow me to rephrase what I am hearing/reading your question to be: Do I see God as powerless to save everyone on Earth? Is this what you are asking me?"Israel", you never answered my question.

Israel

05-31-2012, 04:30 AM

"Israel", you never answered my question.

I'm saying if you believe that God has all power, why do you render God powerless upon the death of the flesh?

I know men of their will won't search for God, but He will seek then out. Even in the lowest hell.

HisDaughter

05-31-2012, 05:10 AM

I'm saying if you believe that God has all power, why do you render God powerless upon the death of the flesh?

I know men of their will won't search for God, but He will seek then out. Even in the lowest hell.

It is not that God is powerless... LOL Do you really think that is how we see Him? God gave man a choice... that is His power to do so. Do you see God as powerless to do this? Romans is clear there is no excuse.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
God will and can seek, yet they do not like the ways of God and He will not force it on them. That is a just God.

Israel

05-31-2012, 05:33 AM

It is not that God is powerless... LOL Do you really think that is how we see Him? God gave man a choice... that is His power to do so. Do you see God as powerless to do this? Romans is clear there is no excuse.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
God will and can seek, yet they do not like the ways of God and He will not force it on them. That is a just God.

Who was it that subjected creation to vanity? Was it willingly?

Again I ask if a man says "by the name of Allah walk" and one who was once crippled then walks, who did the miracle? Remember it is the Spirit that does the work?

If you really want to know what those verses mean, you cannot be afraid to be wrong.

The Unaltered Gospel

05-31-2012, 06:20 AM

Who was it that subjected creation to vanity? Was it willingly?

Again I ask if a man says "by the name of Allah walk" and one who was once crippled then walks, who did the miracle? Remember it is the Spirit that does the work?

If you really want to know what those verses mean, you cannot be afraid to be wrong.

I double dare you to try to use the name of a false god to heal a cripple. Go ahead and see what happens.( Remember Elijah challenging the false prophets) I pray in the name of Jesus..you pray in the name of Allah and we will see what happens. If anything at all happens in the name of "Allah" it will be the work of Satan and not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not perform miracles in the name of "Allah". You are more confused to the ways of God than I originally thought. Wow.

HisDaughter

05-31-2012, 07:24 AM

Who was it that subjected creation to vanity? Was it willingly?

Again I ask if a man says "by the name of Allah walk" and one who was once crippled then walks, who did the miracle? Remember it is the Spirit that does the work?
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

If you really want to know what those verses mean, you cannot be afraid to be wrong.

You have a different understanding? From what!!? These scriptures are clear. "Afraid" ? LOL I am not the one showing pride and arrogance.

Israel

05-31-2012, 11:52 AM

I double dare you to try to use the name of a false god to heal a cripple. Go ahead and see what happens.( Remember Elijah challenging the false prophets) I pray in the name of Jesus..you pray in the name of Allah and we will see what happens. If anything at all happens in the name of "Allah" it will be the work of Satan and not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not perform miracles in the name of "Allah". You are more confused to the ways of God than I originally thought. Wow.

So if the name "jesus" was said, that would be just fine for you? Again the same miracle. I'd like to ask you where does all power come from?

RoyS

05-31-2012, 12:44 PM

Allah is a false god dreamed up by a self-proclaimed 'prophet' six centuries after the life, death and Resurrection of Christ.

John 5:42-44: "I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me: but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?"
John 17:3: "This is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
Romans 3:29-30: "Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God."

2KnowHim

05-31-2012, 01:13 PM

RoyS

05-31-2012, 01:19 PM

And what is His Father's Name, to your Understanding?

Far too many to list here, but I found this list for you. Names of God in the Bible (http://www.smilegodlovesyou.org/names.html)
Note: All of these were used at least six centuries before Mohammed made up his god.

2KnowHim

05-31-2012, 01:29 PM

RoyS

05-31-2012, 01:40 PM

Ok, so to you, He has Many, Many names?

Then why didn't Jesus say He came in His Father's "Names" as in many?
But He didn't, He said NAME as in singular, so which one did He come in, since you are the one
that brought this up, and it is your argument against what Israel's saying, don't you think it's important
that you know Which ONE it was?

I could surmise what Jesus meant, but, unlike some, I don't believe that's a wise thing to do. You see, I don't feel the need to 'know' everything, as some, who proclaim themselves to be 'more mature in their understanding' seem to do. I DO know Jesus wasn't thinking of Allah.

2KnowHim

05-31-2012, 02:13 PM

Allah, translated just means "The God" in our language.

Well, then it is pretty obvious from that statement, that knowing everything about Him and His Word,
is not that important to you, and here is where we differ, MUCH.
I believe He wants us To know everything about Him, but much more than that, He wants us, 2KnowHIM.
And if your not willing to humble yourself to ask others who might just know something that you don't,
then how do you ever expect to build relationships with others, since this is, our ONE common Love.

If I find someone that I believe knows something more about my Lord than me, I cling to them like Honey, not that
I don't seek to know Him on my own, but coming together in Unity, and learning from one another is what these forums
is suppose to be about, isn't it? But this offends most, Why? The fact is that in Reality, you are saying that you don't need us,
or want us.

But by this last statement you might as well said, I know Him enough, and there is nothing you could add to conversations, that is of any interest to me.

Israel

05-31-2012, 02:33 PM

Do you count it as good or evil for God to not only save you, but those you do not see saved? This is the issue at hand. But you will not answer the obvious questions because it testifies to the truth in your own hearts. If you were to say "it is a good thing" knowing you hold that most will perish will contradict your own doctrine. But to call it evil, knowing that even in your own gospel or doctrine, God says He atleast wants all to be saved, would be to curse God. Will you answer bodly to what is in your hearts, or are you still afraid of the light?

I will ask another I will not receive an honest answer to. After death, is one still under the law?

The Unaltered Gospel

05-31-2012, 05:34 PM

The Unaltered Gospel

05-31-2012, 05:36 PM

So if the name "jesus" was said, that would be just fine for you? Again the same miracle. I'd like to ask you where does all power come from?

First, to my knowledge there are no miracles done in the name of the false god "Allah".

Second, if there were miracles done in the name of the false god "Allah" the false signs and wonders would come from Satan not the Holy Spirit.

Third, There is only one true God and that is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Three persons that represent one God. They go by multiple names in the bible. In the OT "Jehovah" or "Yaweh" or "Elohim".

You don't know the ways of God. Allah is not the same god as the God of the bible. Their power is not the same. Satan can only replicate or counterfeit the power of God. All religions or gods don't lead to the one true God of the bible. You are deceived, sir, more than I originally thought. May God have mercy on your soul for your ignorance.

2KnowHim

05-31-2012, 07:15 PM

Israel,

God made provision for all humanity to be saved through faith in Jesus Christ. God already did His part in reconciling creation. Now man must do their part to partake of this reconciliation by faith in Jesus. God created man with free-will to choose. God will not violate anyone's will to force them to faith or to love Him.

He has paid the price for All Souls, as far as Free will is concerned, we are bought with a price and we are not our own.

Do you understand what was going on in the Garden of Gethsemane, do you really think that He was talking about His own will there? After all He continually stated that He came to do the Will of The Father.
When He said "not my will but thine be done". This is the place that He took on ALL the will of humanity and surrendered it to The Father, This is why it says, He sweat as it were great drops of Blood falling to the ground, signifying (ADAM) who was made from the dust of the ground, and the "sleeping souls of the disciples" because of Sorrow. Which also ADAM brought into this world.
Don't you see? This is the place where He Overcame for Every Soul as He tasted Death for Every man. The Blood is for the Atonement of our Souls, our wills. This is one of the most precious places in Scripture where He became our Saviour. This is part of our Redemption and puts to death the Free will doctrine.

You may think you chose to have faith in Him, but not so. God grants Repentance, and causes us to turn to Him. While man continually takes all the credit for their own salvation.
It may appear that you have free will, but behind the scene God is in Control of ALL things. He doesn't have to force anyone to Love Him, it comes out of a Relationship with Him, it's a process that ALL will go through, Judgement, Change, confession, coming to know Him, and Love Him, and Glorifying Him.

The Unaltered Gospel

05-31-2012, 09:32 PM

He has paid the price for All Souls, as far as Free will is concerned, we are bought with a price and we are not our own.

Do you understand what was going on in the Garden of Gethsemane, do you really think that He was talking about His own will there? After all He continually stated that He came to do the Will of The Father.
When He said "not my will but thine be done". This is the place that He took on ALL the will of humanity and surrendered it to The Father, This is why it says, He sweat as it were great drops of Blood falling to the ground, signifying (ADAM) who was made from the dust of the ground, and the "sleeping souls of the disciples" because of Sorrow. Which also ADAM brought into this world.
Don't you see? This is the place where He Overcame for Every Soul as He tasted Death for Every man. The Blood is for the Atonement of our Souls, our wills. This is one of the most precious places in Scripture where He became our Saviour. This is part of our Redemption and puts to death the Free will doctrine.

You may think you chose to have faith in Him, but not so. God grants Repentance, and causes us to turn to Him. While man continually takes all the credit for their own salvation.
It may appear that you have free will, but behind the scene God is in Control of ALL things. He doesn't have to force anyone to Love Him, it comes out of a Relationship with Him, it's a process that ALL will go through, Judgement, Change, confession, coming to know Him, and Love Him, and Glorifying Him.

God grants repentance and causes us to turn to him, huh? Interesting. Would not that make God a respecter of persons when scripture is clear that God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34)?

If what you are saying is true ( it may appear that we have free will but God is in control of all things) then why did God tell Israel to walk in his ways, keep his commandments and they shall live. But if their hearts turn away and worship other gods He will denounce them and they shall perish? God said I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE life that both you and your seed may live? Sounds like free will to me, hmmmm?

The Unaltered Gospel

05-31-2012, 09:45 PM

Jed

05-31-2012, 09:55 PM

Narrow is the way that leads to Salvation..few shall find it Matthew 7.13,14 wide is the way that leads to destruction!

2KnowHim

05-31-2012, 10:05 PM

God grants repentance and causes us to turn to him, huh? Interesting. Would not that make God a respecter of persons when scripture is clear that God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34)?

If what you are saying is true ( it may appear that we have free will but God is in control of all things) then why did God tell Israel to walk in his ways, keep his commandments and they shall live. But if their hearts turn away and worship other gods He will denounce them and they shall perish? God said I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE life that both you and your seed may live? Sounds like free will to me, hmmmm?

God is not a respecter of persons, but did He not choose Pharoah to show forth His Power, Did not He choose Judas, does He not have vessels of Honor and dishonor, all for His Good Pleasure, and His Purposes? This is a very temporal life and all these things are as a moment for God. And just because someone Perishes in this life, does not mean that's it to Him. God says All Souls belong to Him.
There are only Two kinds of people described in scripture, The first Adam, and The Last, no matter what story your reading, it will depict those who walk by the Law, and those who walk by faith.

For natural Israel, is where that was spoken to "choose life", and that under the Law. For the Rebellious, and unbelieving, not for the Righteous.
For God is called the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob....Those that believed God, and walked by Faith. So if your basing Free will
on that, then you would also have to base "LIFE" on the Law as well, because they go hand in hand with the cursings, and they still did not KNOW HIM.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

The Unaltered Gospel

05-31-2012, 10:11 PM

The Unaltered Gospel

05-31-2012, 10:13 PM

God is not a respecter of persons, but did He not choose Pharoah to show forth His Power, Did not He choose Judas, does He not have vessels of Honor and dishonor, all for His Good Pleasure, and His Purposes? This is a very temporal life and all these things are as a moment for God. And just because someone Perishes in this life, does not mean that's it to Him. God says All Souls belong to Him.
There are only Two kinds of people described in scripture, The first Adam, and The Last, no matter what story your reading, it will depict those who walk by the Law, and those who walk by faith.

For natural Israel, is where that was spoken to "choose life", and that under the Law. For the Rebellious, and unbelieving, not for the Righteous.
For God is called the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob....Those that believed God, and walked by Faith. So if your basing Free will
on that, then you would also have to base "LIFE" on the Law as well, because they go hand in hand with the cursings, and they still did not KNOW HIM.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Sigh....I tried...you are walking in gross error and I'm very concerned for your eternal salvation.

RoyS

05-31-2012, 10:14 PM

Allah, translated just means "The God" in our language.
I know what 'Allah' means, thank you very much, Captain Condescention. The Muslim god Allah is not the God of the Bible.

Well, then it is pretty obvious from that statement, that knowing everything about Him and His Word,
is not that important to you, and here is where we differ, MUCH.
I believe He wants us To know everything about Him, but much more than that, He wants us, 2KnowHIM.
Your snide (once again) insinuation aside, I am not so vain as to think I can know 'everything' about God; certainly, you won't deny that no one can know His thoughts?

And if your not willing to humble yourself to ask others who might just know something that you don't,
then how do you ever expect to build relationships with others, since this is, our ONE common Love.
If I find someone that I believe knows something more about my Lord than me, I cling to them like Honey, not that
I don't seek to know Him on my own, but coming together in Unity, and learning from one another is what these forums
is suppose to be about, isn't it? But this offends most, Why? The fact is that in Reality, you are saying that you don't need us,
or want us.

But by this last statement you might as well said, I know Him enough, and there is nothing you could add to conversations, that is of any interest to me.
And I feel the same way; I gladly listen to, and learn from, those whom I feel can teach me, according to God's word. I do not seek anything from those who try to foist lies, deceit and a false gospel on the unwary. There is certainly nothing more you can add to my present knowledge, so, yes, anything you say will be taken with a very large grain of salt.

2KnowHim

05-31-2012, 10:31 PM

2KnowHim,

You said: It may appear that you have free will, but behind the scene God is in Control of ALL things.

If that were true then why didn't God stop Adam from eating the forbidden fruit? Think about this before you answer. If it is not His will for any to perish why didn't God stop Adam? It would of saved Jesus a whole lot of pain and suffering don't you think? The very fact that God did not jump out of heaven and stop and interfere what Adam did is proof there is free will and that God does not sovereignly act in our lives.

His ways are not our ways, He was the one who subjected us to Vanity, for His purpose. And He saw all that He had created and made, and said, it was Very Good.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once (So was Adam) but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. (So did Adam) "Thou shalt Not"
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. (So did Adam)
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. (So did it with Adam)
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin,(Naked) working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. By whom?

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

The Unaltered Gospel

05-31-2012, 10:39 PM

His ways are not our ways, He was the one who subjected us to Vanity, for His purpose. And He saw all that He had created and made, and said, it was Very Good.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once (So was Adam) but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. (So did Adam) "Thou shalt Not"
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. (So did Adam)
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. (So did it with Adam)
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin,(Naked) working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. By whom?

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

No No No, God is not willing that any should perish 2 Peter 3:9 that contradicts your "His ways are not our ways, He was the one who subjected us to Vanity, for His purpose". People perished according to your theory and that contradicts the word of God, sir. God is not the author of confusion, man's traditions are.

Israel

06-01-2012, 03:27 AM

If someone had a stable of horses and you decided to purchase the horses within. But upon paying the price, the previous owner says "Now even though you payed for the horses in this stable, however in order for these horses to go with you, they have to WILLINGLY decide to go! For those that remain and didn't decide to go, they will stay here". How would YOU treat this situation?

1 Corinthians 6:19-20

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Israel

06-01-2012, 03:56 AM

2KnowHim,

You said: It may appear that you have free will, but behind the scene God is in Control of ALL things.

If that were true then why didn't God stop Adam from eating the forbidden fruit? Think about this before you answer. If it is not His will for any to perish why didn't God stop Adam? It would of saved Jesus a whole lot of pain and suffering don't you think? The very fact that God did not jump out of heaven and stop and interfere what Adam did is proof there is free will and that God does not sovereignly act in our lives.

Daniel 4:33-37

33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Even Nebuchadnezzar's eyes were opened to this most precious truth!

36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.

37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

The Unaltered Gospel

06-01-2012, 05:57 AM

The Unaltered Gospel

06-01-2012, 06:04 AM

Daniel 4:33-37

33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
[/SI
Even Nebuchadnezzar's eyes were opened to this most precious truth!
[/COLOR]
36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.
[SIZE=3]
37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

Again copying and pasting scripture doesn't mean you know what they mean. God warned Nebuchadnezzar to change his ways before this happened. God did not move into Nebuchadnezzar's life sovereignly just to prove a point.

This has nothing to do with the fact that people perished as the result of Adam's sin and God's will is for no one to perish. So, Adam acted out of free will choice and God honored that choice. It was not God's plan to sabotage his perfect creation but he knew it would happen giving man free will to make choices.

2KnowHim

06-01-2012, 07:18 AM

Again copying and pasting scripture doesn't mean you know what they mean. God warned Nebuchadnezzar to change his ways before this happened. God did not move into Nebuchadnezzar's life sovereignly just to prove a point.

This has nothing to do with the fact that people perished as the result of Adam's sin and God's will is for no one to perish. So, Adam acted out of free will choice and God honored that choice. It was not God's plan to sabotage his perfect creation but he knew it would happen giving man free will to make choices.

Israel is trying to show you that man in his fallen nature is no better than beasts, until we awake to Righteousness in Christ. You can believe he knows what they mean.

Psa 49:20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, Is like the beasts that perish.

Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Mar 1:13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

The Unaltered Gospel

06-01-2012, 08:08 AM

Israel is trying to show you that man in his fallen nature is no better than beasts, until we awake to Righteousness in Christ. You can believe he knows what they mean.

Psa 49:20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, Is like the beasts that perish.

Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Mar 1:13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Sigh... I have given you truth and you continue to reject it. I'm not going to waste anymore of my time with your unteachable spirit and your fable spreading. May God have mercy on your soul for your lack of knowledge of the bible and salvation.

Israel

06-01-2012, 03:40 PM

Sigh... I have given you truth and you continue to reject it. I'm not going to waste anymore of my time with your unteachable spirit and your fable spreading. May God have mercy on your soul for your lack of knowledge of the bible and salvation.

What is truth to you beloved?

Israel

06-01-2012, 03:44 PM

Not only do those verses show insight that men or no better than beasts, but it shows even out of the mouth of one you deem lost, that he understands that God is in control of ALL!

Israel

06-01-2012, 04:07 PM

Benjie

06-01-2012, 06:26 PM

I'm saying if you believe that God has all power, why do you render God powerless upon the death of the flesh?

I know men of their will won't search for God, but He will seek then out. Even in the lowest hell.Excellent misuse of scripture by you there, Israel.

Ahh, the old "is God to weak to save everyone" ploy. No, He is not. He does, however, play by His rules. His rules state that you must come to the Father, through Christ, before physical death overtakes you.

God does not now, nor has He ever, nor will He ever, go around His own rules.

Israel

06-02-2012, 12:11 AM

Excellent misuse of scripture by you there, Israel.

Ahh, the old "is God to weak to save everyone" ploy. No, He is not. He does, however, play by His rules. His rules state that you must come to the Father, through Christ, before physical death overtakes you.

God does not now, nor has He ever, nor will He ever, go around His own rules.

1. Please show me where that is stated in the bible. And if God played by "His own rules" we will all perish as sinners!

Hansc

06-02-2012, 02:12 AM

if God played by "His own rules" we will all perish as sinners!

That's a pretty stupid statement.

Whose idea do you think it was to send Christ to die as a sacrifice and rise from the dead, so that all who receive Him in this life may LIVE?

Benjie

06-02-2012, 04:04 AM

1. Please show me where that is stated in the bible.Start at Genesis 1:1 and continue through Revelation. You will see it throughout.

And if God played by "His own rules" we will all perish as sinners!Until Christ died for those that believe, this was true - for all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. However, now that Christ has come, there is no other name by which we must be saved, and this requirement is before physical death. For it has been appointed once for a man to die, and after this is the judgement. If you have not accepted Christ in your life, accepted His Lordship, and put on Christ Himself, then you are dead in your trespasses and are subject to eternal punishment.

If you have a Bible, please read it. It's all in there.

Israel

06-02-2012, 07:45 AM

Start at Genesis 1:1 and continue through Revelation. You will see it throughout.

Until Christ died for those that believe, this was true - for all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. However, now that Christ has come, there is no other name by which we must be saved, and this requirement is before physical death. For it has been appointed once for a man to die, and after this is the judgement. If you have not accepted Christ in your life, accepted His Lordship, and put on Christ Himself, then you are dead in your trespasses and are subject to eternal punishment.

If you have a Bible, please read it. It's all in there.

I have, and everything I can agree with except that "before physical death" thing you or the pastor you follow has told you. And by your understanding, the man gathering sticks on the sabbath day will burn forever while the thief on the cross obtained salvation by personally seeing Jesus?

The Unaltered Gospel

06-02-2012, 08:54 AM

I have, and everything I can agree with except that "before physical death" thing you or the pastor you follow has told you. And by your understanding, the man gathering sticks on the sabbath day will burn forever while the thief on the cross obtained salvation by personally seeing Jesus?

Don't know why I'm reengaging with you, but Jesus said if you don't believe in me you shall die in your sins (John 8:23-24). Where I am going, you cannot come – Jesus was going to heaven. We know from verse 24 why they couldn’t go there. They couldn’t go there because of their sins and sin nature. Heaven is a holy place with a holy God. He doesn’t allow people who have a sin nature to go there. That is why the only way to go there is through the redemption that Christ offers in this life (Hebrews 9:27). It is the only way to have our sin and sin nature removed. Your spiritual condition when you die determines where you spend eternity.

Jesus sums this up in Mark 16:16...and the Apostle John in John 3:36

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned".

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him".

RoyS

06-02-2012, 09:26 AM

The Unaltered Gospel

06-02-2012, 09:33 AM

That is the problem with universalism; those who subscribe to this false gospel have to twist and torture God's word to fit their agenda. They constantly take verses out of context, ignore the verses they don't like, and add their own spin on passages that are as clear, as my Gram used to say, 'as the nose on your face'.

Precisely, Roy. Also, Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Who can believe unless there is a preacher who is sent to preach the gospel and the word for them to hear? Who is doing the preaching of the word of God for these people who are in the lake of fire to come to faith? Where in scripture does this miraculously happen? It doesn't. Fire does not bring faith to change ones nature...only the word of God can do that in this life! God bless. :D

RoyS

06-02-2012, 10:33 AM

Precisely, Roy. Also, Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Who can believe unless there is a preacher who is sent to preach the gospel and the word for them to hear? Who is doing the preaching of the word of God for these people who are in the lake of fire to come to faith? Where in scripture does this miraculously happen? It doesn't. Fire does not bring faith to change ones nature...only the word of God can do that in this life! God bless. :D
I agree, for the most part, but, people can know of God without being preached to. Psalms 19:1-6 tells us that He is known through His Creation. Of course, faith does come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. That's another sticky wicket for universalism; how can one be saved by faith, if they are already in the LoF? No faith needed, they KNOW they screwed up. There are so many verses in the Bible that stress faith, the universalist's arguments would be laughable, if the outcome weren't so tragic.

The Unaltered Gospel

06-02-2012, 11:14 AM

I agree, for the most part, but, people can know of God without being preached to. Psalms 19:1-6 tells us that He is known through His Creation. Of course, faith does come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. That's another sticky wicket for universalism; how can one be saved by faith, if they are already in the LoF? No faith needed, they KNOW they screwed up. There are so many verses in the Bible that stress faith, the universalist's arguments would be laughable, if the outcome weren't so tragic.

True, but to go from spiritual death to spiritual life one must believe in the name of Jesus in this life. Just knowing their is a God through creation itself does not change ones spiritual nature and get you into heaven. That is why Paul said in Romans 10:13-15

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Hallelujah! :)

RoyS

06-02-2012, 11:27 AM

2KnowHim

06-02-2012, 01:48 PM

Precisely, Roy. Also, Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Who can believe unless there is a preacher who is sent to preach the gospel and the word for them to hear? Who is doing the preaching of the word of God for these people who are in the lake of fire to come to faith? Where in scripture does this miraculously happen? It doesn't. Fire does not bring faith to change ones nature...only the word of God can do that in this life! God bless. :D

Jer 20:9 Then I said, "I will not make mention of Him, nor speak any more in His name." But His word became in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay.

Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Fire changes everything, For our God is a Consuming fire.

2KnowHim

06-02-2012, 02:03 PM

We're not in disagreement here, UG. The word will be preached, as Christ proclaimed in Matthew 13:10. He will return, only when that happens, giving no man excuse. Those who cling to the universalist position will stand in front of His throne and make excuses that are not tenable.

See, this is one thing that we do not concern ourselves with, because it was not taught by man, it came by The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

2KnowHim

06-02-2012, 02:11 PM

I agree, for the most part, but, people can know of God without being preached to. Psalms 19:1-6 tells us that He is known through His Creation. Of course, faith does come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. That's another sticky wicket for universalism; how can one be saved by faith, if they are already in the LoF? No faith needed, they KNOW they screwed up. There are so many verses in the Bible that stress faith, the universalist's arguments would be laughable, if the outcome weren't so tragic.

Faith is only needed for what you cannot see, for when you see something, why do you need faith for it?
Faith is Substance, it is tangible, it is also Evidence of things hoped for.

Those that die physically and have not received Christ through faith, will not need faith when they stand before Him now will they?
In this sense they have a lost life in this world never having received, but in God, it ain't over yet.
For All will confess That Jesus Christ is Lord to The Glory of The Father.

Again, Fire changes everything. For our God is a consuming Fire.

2KnowHim

06-02-2012, 02:23 PM

Joshua 5:-

Jos 5:1 And it came to pass, when all the kings of the Amorites, which were on the side of Jordan westward, and all the kings of the Canaanites, which were by the sea, heard that the LORD had dried up the waters of Jordan (Death) from before the children of Israel, until we were passed over, that their heart melted, neither was there spirit in them any more, because of the children of Israel.
Jos 5:2 At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time.

Jos 5:5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.
Jos 5:6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that he would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.

Jos 5:8 And it came to pass, when they had done circumcising all the people, that they abode in their places in the camp, till they were whole.
Jos 5:9 And the LORD said unto Joshua, This day have I rolled away the reproach of Egypt(sin, the world, other gods) from off you. Wherefore the name of the place is called Gilgal unto this day.

What a picture, for those who have eyes to see, beyond Jordan, (Death) what will happen to those who have not been circumcised this side Jordan.

The Unaltered Gospel

06-02-2012, 02:42 PM

[/U][/B]

Jer 20:9 Then I said, "I will not make mention of Him, nor speak any more in His name." But His word became in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay.

Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Fire changes everything, For our God is a Consuming fire.

1 Cor 3:15 is speaking about believers works ( your beliefs, works in Jesus name, etc) that will be tested at the judgment seat of Christ. If your works are hay and stubble they will be burned up but as long as your foundation remains ( faith in Jesus) you will still be saved.

Fire didn't change the people in Rev 16:8-9. What did they do? They did not repent but blasphemed God...think about what was happening here and they still didn't repent. Fire does nothing but torment and punish!

RoyS

06-02-2012, 02:52 PM

See, this is one thing that we do not concern ourselves with, because it was not taught by man, it came by The Revelation of Jesus Christ.
There are a lot of things you 'don't concern yourselves with', to your detriment. God's word comes to mind. If you 'do not concern yourselves' with the words of Jesus Christ, you are lost.

RoyS

06-02-2012, 03:00 PM

Faith is only needed for what you cannot see, for when you see something, why do you need faith for it?
Faith is Substance, it is tangible, it is also Evidence of things hoped for.

Those that die physically and have not received Christ through faith, will not need faith when they stand before Him now will they?
In this sense they have a lost life in this world never having received, but in God, it ain't over yet.
For All will confess That Jesus Christ is Lord to The Glory of The Father.

Again, Fire changes everything. For our God is a consuming Fire.
Good gracious, your own statement precludes salvation for those who are lost when they die. You reinforce my point.
Twist and torture God's word all you want; you are still wrong. Yes, faith is 'sure knowledge in those things not yet seen' (NOT substance and tangible things). You can only be saved by faith in the grace of God. How is faith working when you are already in the LoF? 'Splain, Lucy.

RoyS

06-02-2012, 03:26 PM

Tell me, Israel and 2knowhim, where does the Bible say that faith is not important? Where does Christ say that ALL will be saved? Don't cherry-pick verses; accept God's word as a whole. Show me why I don't have to accept Christ in this life in order to get into Heaven.

Israel

06-03-2012, 04:46 AM

That is the problem with universalism; those who subscribe to this false gospel have to twist and torture God's word to fit their agenda. They constantly take verses out of context, ignore the verses they don't like, and add their own spin on passages that are as clear, as my Gram used to say, 'as the nose on your face'.

Please show me any verse that you believe I fail to see or neglect and I will most certainly bring them to light! We've been where you are beloved. I would prefer you to do it for the purpose of honestly wanting to know if such a thing is possible, but atleast do it to uphold what you claim as truth.

RoyS

06-03-2012, 05:07 AM

Please show me any verse that you believe I fail to see or neglect and I will most certainly bring them to light! We've been where you are beloved. I would prefer you to do it for the purpose of honestly wanting to know if such a thing is possible, but atleast do it to uphold what you claim as truth.
First, I am NOT your 'beloved'. Second, READ your Bible. The truth has been shown to you, if you have ears to hear.

Let's start with the basics:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Israel

06-03-2012, 05:32 AM

True, but to go from spiritual death to spiritual life one must believe in the name of Jesus in this life. Just knowing their is a God through creation itself does not change ones spiritual nature and get you into heaven. That is why Paul said in Romans 10:13-15

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Hallelujah! :)

Jeremiah 14

14*The word of the Lord that came to Jeremiah concerning the dearth.

2*Judah mourneth, and the gates thereof languish; they are black unto the ground; and the cry of Jerusalem is gone up.

3*And their nobles have sent their little ones to the waters: they came to the pits, and found no water; they returned with their vessels empty; they were ashamed and confounded, and covered their heads.

4*Because the ground is chapt, for there was no rain in the earth, the plowmen were ashamed, they covered their heads.

5*Yea, the hind also calved in the field, and forsook it, because there was no grass.

6*And the wild asses did stand in the high places, they snuffed up the wind like dragons; their eyes did fail, because there was no grass.

7*O Lord, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name's sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee.

8*O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?

9*Why shouldest thou be as a man astonied, as a mighty man that cannot save? yet thou, O Lord, art in the midst of us, and we are called by thy name; leave us not.

10*Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins.

11*Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good.

12*When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.

13*Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.

14*Then the Lord said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

15*Therefore thus saith the Lord concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.

16*And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.

17*Therefore thou shalt say this word unto them; Let mine eyes run down with tears night and day, and let them not cease: for the virgin daughter of my people is broken with a great breach, with a very grievous blow.

18*If I go forth into the field, then behold the slain with the sword! and if I enter into the city, then behold them that are sick with famine! yea, both the prophet and the priest go about into a land that they know not.

19*Hast thou utterly rejected Judah? hath thy soul lothed Zion? why hast thou smitten us, and there is no healing for us? we looked for peace, and there is no good; and for the time of healing, and behold trouble!

20*We acknowledge, O Lord, our wickedness, and the iniquity of our fathers: for we have sinned against thee.

21*Do not abhor us, for thy name's sake, do not disgrace the throne of thy glory: remember, break not thy covenant with us.

22*Are there any among the vanities of the Gentiles that can cause rain? or can the heavens give showers? art not thou he, O Lord our God? therefore we will wait upon thee: for thou hast made all these things.