The Sabbath

[Hansc]

The Sabbath

Since this topic came up, I thought I would start a new thread. I was going to bring it up in the John study, but it doesn't come up till John 5.

Here is what the Bible teaches on the Sabbath.



John 5:16
And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the Sabbath day.

It was primarily Christ’s doctrine of Sabbath observance that drew the wrath of the Pharisees and started them plotting to kill Him. It was Christ’s liberal teaching on Sabbath observance, more than anything else, which provoked the anger of the Pharisees.

Such legalistic formulism actually blinds the heart to real human needs. Jesus was by his actions showing that the giving of mercy and kindness were of a much higher obligation than the keeping of rules and regulations.

Because Jesus was not following and obeying their beliefs on Sabbath observances, the Pharisees were determined to kill Him. These religious formalists were even determined to keep their own rules and regulations while they killed Him.

The arrest of Jesus came at the time of the Passover, the most Holy week of the Jewish year. The problem that these legalists had was that they wanted to dispose of Jesus, without defiling themselves for the Passover celebration.

So they came up with a plan. They could try Jesus at night, which although illegal, was not as illegal as failing to keep Passover. Then if there was an “official” trial in the early morning hours and then an appeal to Pilate, being very careful to avoid actually entering Pilate’s quarters for fear for ritual defilement which would prevent them from eating the Passover. Then there could be a quick execution.

The whole problem they had with Jesus would be over by noon and they could then leave, worship God and eat their Passover undefiled and undisturbed.

Concerning the Sabbath, it is often wondered why Christians do not observe the Sabbath. Notice here that it is the Jews that took exception with Christ over His Sabbath violations. The Scriptures tell us the Sabbath is given exclusively to the Jews, the house of Israel, and not to ANY other people.


to be cont...

[Jed]

The Sabbath

Since this topic came up, I thought I would start a new thread. I was going to bring it up in the John study, but it doesn't come up till John 5.

Here is what the Bible teaches on the Sabbath.



John 5:16
And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the Sabbath day.

It was primarily Christ’s doctrine of Sabbath observance that drew the wrath of the Pharisees and started them plotting to kill Him. It was Christ’s liberal teaching on Sabbath observance, more than anything else, which provoked the anger of the Pharisees.

Such legalistic formulism actually blinds the heart to real human needs. Jesus was by his actions showing that the giving of mercy and kindness were of a much higher obligation than the keeping of rules and regulations.

Because Jesus was not following and obeying their beliefs on Sabbath observances, the Pharisees were determined to kill Him. These religious formalists were even determined to keep their own rules and regulations while they killed Him.

The arrest of Jesus came at the time of the Passover, the most Holy week of the Jewish year. The problem that these legalists had was that they wanted to dispose of Jesus, without defiling themselves for the Passover celebration.

So they came up with a plan. They could try Jesus at night, which although illegal, was not as illegal as failing to keep Passover. Then if there was an “official” trial in the early morning hours and then an appeal to Pilate, being very careful to avoid actually entering Pilate’s quarters for fear for ritual defilement which would prevent them from eating the Passover. Then there could be a quick execution.

The whole problem they had with Jesus would be over by noon and they could then leave, worship God and eat their Passover undefiled and undisturbed.

Concerning the Sabbath, it is often wondered why Christians do not observe the Sabbath. Notice here that it is the Jews that took exception with Christ over His Sabbath violations. The Scriptures tell us the Sabbath is given exclusively to the Jews, the house of Israel, and not to ANY other people.


to be cont...

I would like to know the Scripture you aretalking about where the Sabbath is given exclusivelly to the Jews/house of Israel..when God brought it in on the Seventh day of Creation week, when He rested, blessed the day and made it Holy. This was before Jews/Israel/Hebrew/gentile etc...just humankind...

[The Unaltered Gospel]

The OT laws and sacrifices pointed to Jesus...The Sabbath was never about a day but our future rest in Christ...the Sabbath is a type and shadow of born again believers in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the NT rest that was lost in Adam's fall. Jesus is our Sabbath!

Matt 11:28 " Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

[RoyS]

Israel,

Please do not post in the SoF restricted forums, as universalism does not conform with the CWS SoF.

[historyb]

We can worship any day now, the day does not matter the intent of the heart does.

In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable.

Romans 14:5

[Jed]

The OT laws and sacrifices pointed to Jesus...The Sabbath was never about a day but our future rest in Christ...the Sabbath is a type and shadow of born again believers in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the NT rest that was lost in Adam's fall. Jesus is our Sabbath!

Matt 11:28 " Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

So what you are saying the 10 Commandments, God's law, is done away with?????????????

[Hansc]

Jed


I would like to know the Scripture you are talking about where the Sabbath is given exclusivelly to the Jews/house of Israel

Jed, am I to believe that while you speak of the Sabbath and want to make pronouncements about its observance you haven't actually done your homework and know what the Bible says about the Sabbath? Yoy asked about which Scriptures say what I told you, well here are THREE:



Exodus 31:16-17
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: ,

The Sabbath was exclusively for the children of Israel. It was not given to the Gentiles. It was given to them that were involved in the flight from Egypt by God through Moses.

Deuteronomy 5:15
..remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the Sabbath day.,

The Sabbath was to be kept by those who God had lead out of Egypt and by their progeny. Notice too, that in the Bible, neither Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph or any of the Jewish patriarchs are shown to have observed the Sabbath. That is because they lived prior to the giving of the Law at Sinai, where the Sabbath was given.

Ezekiel 20:10-12
Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness. And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. Moreover also I gave THEM my Sabbaths, to be a sign between ME and THEM,


Notice the connection with the Exodus out of Egypt and the keeping of the Sabbath. God says the Sabbath is a sign, between Him and the House of Israel in regards to the deliverance out of Egypt. The Sabbath under the Law belonged to the House of Israel and not any other group.

[Jed]

We can worship any day now, the day does not matter the intent of the heart does.

In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable.

Romans 14:5

Why does 95 percent of professing christians pick the first day of the week sunday, if they can pick any day they want?

[Jed]

Jed



Jed, am I to believe that while you speak of the Sabbath and want to make pronouncements about its observance you haven't actually done your homework and know what the Bible says about the Sabbath? Yoy asked about which Scriptures say what I told you, well here are THREE:



Exodus 31:16-17
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: ,

The Sabbath was exclusively for the children of Israel. It was not given to the Gentiles. It was given to them that were involved in the flight from Egypt by God through Moses.

Deuteronomy 5:15
..remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the Sabbath day.,

The Sabbath was to be kept by those who God had lead out of Egypt and by their progeny. Notice too, that in the Bible, neither Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph or any of the Jewish patriarchs are shown to have observed the Sabbath. That is because they lived prior to the giving of the Law at Sinai, where the Sabbath was given.

Ezekiel 20:10-12
Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness. And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. Moreover also I gave THEM my Sabbaths, to be a sign between ME and THEM,


Notice the connection with the Exodus out of Egypt and the keeping of the Sabbath. God says the Sabbath is a sign, between Him and the House of Israel in regards to the deliverance out of Egypt. The Sabbath under the Law belonged to the House of Israel and not any other group.

Hansc....how about Gentiles being at one with the Jews/Israeli's..grafted in, so to speak? Can we ignore Ephesians 3, Romans 11, Galatians 3?

[historyb]

Why does 95 percent of professing christians pick the first day of the week sunday, if they can pick any day they want?

Because the Lord rose on that day

[Hansc]

So what you are saying the 10 Commandments, God's law, is done away with?????????????

God's law consists of much more than just 10 commandments. There are 613 commandments in the Mosaic law. Those who seek to be justified by the law are obligated to keep them ALL. Do you think you are still under the Law????????? Read over Romans and Galatians, underline wherever it says LAW, make note of what it says.

Galatians 5: 1-4
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace

[Hansc]

Jd


Can we ignore Ephesians 3, Romans 11, Galatians 3?

Jd, by insisting on being under the law, you essentially are ignoring the teaching found in these books. The Bible is pretty clear on our position in Christ.

You asked for a passage that said that the Sabbath was for the children of Israel, I gave you three and two of them came from the law. Are you going to listen to those words from the Bible or are you going to try and rationalize them away??

[Hansc]

Because the Lord rose on that day

Good answer, that is the reason why.

[Jed]

Because the Lord rose on that day

And where would God's commandment to keep this day be? And where did He bless it? Or are you relying on the fourth century pope'sl divine authority to bless the first day of the week?

[Jed]

Jd



Jd, by insisting on being under the law, you essentially are ignoring the teaching found in these books. The Bible is pretty clear on our position in Christ.

You asked for a passage that said that the Sabbath was for the children of Israel, I gave you three and two of them came from the law. Are you going to listen to those words from the Bible or are you going to try and rationalize them away??

Are gentiles not one with the Jews/Israelis in the Bible? The four passages i quoted you seem to think so!

[Jed]

The OT laws and sacrifices pointed to Jesus...The Sabbath was never about a day but our future rest in Christ...the Sabbath is a type and shadow of born again believers in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the NT rest that was lost in Adam's fall. Jesus is our Sabbath!

Matt 11:28 " Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

Certain sacrificial, ceremonial and feast laws that were part of the Mosaic law (613) laws did point to the Cross....But you are grouping God's law, the Ten Commandments, which He personally wrote on tablets of stone, and placed in the Ark of the Covenant for permanency in the same group, in error...Apostle James calls God's law the ten commandments as the Royal law, the law of love, and Apostle John says, he who says I know Him and keeps not His commandments are liars and the truth is not in them..and His Commandments are not grievous....Epistle of Apostles James and John

[Jed]

Because the Lord rose on that day

Did He? And what day was He crucified?

[Jed]

Certain sacrificial, ceremonial and feast laws that were part of the Mosaic law (613) laws did point to the Cross....But you are grouping God's law, the Ten Commandments, which He personally wrote on tablets of stone, and placed in the Ark of the Covenant for permanency in the same group, in error...Apostle James calls God's law the ten commandments as the Royal law, the law of love, and Apostle John says, he who says I know Him and keeps not His commandments are liars and the truth is not in them..and His Commandments are not grievous....Epistle of Apostles James and John
Bible reference James 2.8 and 1st John 2.4 and 5.3

[historyb]

And where would God's commandment to keep this day be? And where did He bless it? Or are you relying on the fourth century pope'sl divine authority to bless the first day of the week?

In the Gospels when Christ arose. You see you condemn yourself by tying the law to yourself like a noose which Christ fulfilled, yet for you that is not enough you still want to do more. God said in His Word to let no man condemn another according to the day yet you condemn all who do not follow you, you are not following God but yourself. Your way is a fool's errand leading to death

[Jed]

In the Gospels when Christ arose. You see you condemn yourself by tying the law to yourself like a noose which Christ fulfilled, yet for you that is not enough you still want to do more. God said in His Word to let no man condemn another according to the day yet you condemn all who do not follow you, you are not following God but yourself. Your way is a fool's errand leading to death


And where would your scriptural reference be for your post? Please advise...you appear to be making an emotional statement instead of a factual one!

[Jed]

Jd



Jd, by insisting on being under the law, you essentially are ignoring the teaching found in these books. The Bible is pretty clear on our position in Christ.

You asked for a passage that said that the Sabbath was for the children of Israel, I gave you three and two of them came from the law. Are you going to listen to those words from the Bible or are you going to try and rationalize them away??

I gave you a few scriptures that say we are one with the Jew/israeli's..you seem to ignore...can you now address these or would you like to ignore them?

[Hansc]

Jed

You asked for Scripture that showed where God plainly speaks of the Sabbath as being for those whom He took out of Egypt. I gave you three, you can ignore the Word of God or you can bring your thinking in line with the Word the choice is yours.


Are gentiles not one with the Jews/Israelis in the Bible?

The Judizers that Paul had to withstand, probably used similar arguments against the apostle Paul. We see that Paul frequently had to stand against misguided religious people who had the same mistaken notions of the law as yourself. However, we have the value of having the entire New Testament to help us understand the change Christ brought, the early Judizers did not have that advantage. Yet even with the advantage of having the New Testament in several translations, it surprises me that some, such as yourself, still have trouble understanding the plain message of Paul's letters explaining the relationship between the law and grace.

[Hansc]

Moving right along in our look at the Sabbath.

John 5:9
And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the Sabbath.

…..the same day was the Sabbath.

Note the ominous tone that this verse ends on. This is the beginning of the conflict between Jesus and the Pharisees, who were more concerned about religious protocol and ritual than actually serving God and man. Such is the spirit of the Pharisee. He is a rules and rituals person.

The accusation that Jesus broke the Jewish Sabbath was the basic charge that moved the Pharisees to seek Christ’s destruction.

In this day, there are modern day Pharisees, individuals who will attack others for celebrating Christ on a day other than the Jewish Sabbath. They will claim that the Jewish Sabbath is being violated. The same claim that so enraged the Pharisees of Christ’s day also moves the modern Pharisee. This Pharisee spirit is blind to the fact that God is at work when they believe He should not be.

God just does not do what the Pharisee wants Him to do.

The Pharisee can not see beyond his little religious ordinances blinders. Some of these modern day Pharisees even say that a person should not go to church on Sunday, yet to those who have ears to hear, they can hear the Spirit working on all days, even Sunday. I've noticed that more than anything else, it is the discussion of the Sabbath that stirs up the spirit of the modern day Pharisee. In this, more than anything else, they are revealed for what they are.

John 5:10
The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the Sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.

It was primarily Christ’s doctrine of Sabbath observance that drew the wrath of the Pharisees and started them plotting to kill Him. It was primarily Christ’s liberal teaching on Sabbath observance, more than anything else, which provoked the anger of the Pharisees.

Jesus most likely made it a point to heal on the Jewish Sabbath in order to provoke a confrontation and to thereby expose the Pharisees hypocrisy and also reveal what God really wanted.

The Pharisee is more concerned about rituals, rules and ordinances than about real human needs. The Pharisees wanted rules and rituals; they did not so much concern themselves about the grace of God.

Such legalistic formulism actually blinds the heart to real human needs. Jesus was by his actions showing that the giving of mercy and kindness were of a much higher obligation than the keeping of rules and regulations.

Why does the Pharisee spirit get so angry about these supposed Sabbath violations? The hidden reason is obvious. The modern Pharisee has not really comprehended or is appreciative of what the principle of grace is really all about. They are secretly more of a “works” person.

To them, Christianity is more of a system of works, character building activities, exercises and rituals from which merit accrues. That is why the modern day Pharisee will often talk about how what they are doing is “more pleasing to God”.

[historyb]

And where would your scriptural reference be for your post? Please advise...you appear to be making an emotional statement instead of a factual one!

I gave it, look it up

[The Unaltered Gospel]

So what you are saying the 10 Commandments, God's law, is done away with?????????????

Not done away with, but fulfilled by Jesus (Matt 5:17-18).

Now in the NT the 10 commandments are written in our hearts when we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior (Romans 2:14-15).

The 10 commandments were given to the Jews to reveal to them they had a sin nature. The commandments represented the nature and character of God. Jesus lived a sinless life and when we accept him as Lord and Savior we receive that righteousness that the Law revealed that Jesus fulfilled. (Eph 4:24) ;)

[The Unaltered Gospel]

Jed

I recommend you meditate on the books of Galatians and Hebrews to understand how Jesus fulfilled the OT law and sacrifices and how the OT was replaced by the NT. After that meditate on the book of Ephesians to understand who you are in Jesus Christ. God bless.

[The Unaltered Gospel]

And where would God's commandment to keep this day be? And where did He bless it? Or are you relying on the fourth century pope'sl divine authority to bless the first day of the week?

There is no commandment it is a day we choose to fellowship with believers (Acts 20:7). Why? Because the first day is when Jesus Christ was risen from the dead which happened to be on a Sunday (Psalm 118:24). Colossians 2:16-17 is very clear on not judging anyone on what day they celebrate their sabbath( rest) in Jesus Christ! Hallelujah!

[Jed]

There is no commandment it is a day we choose to fellowship with believers (Acts 20:7). Why? Because the first day is when Jesus Christ was risen from the dead which happened to be on a Sunday (Psalm 118:24). Colossians 2:16-17 is very clear on not judging anyone on what day they celebrate their sabbath( rest) in Jesus Christ! Hallelujah!

So what you are say TUG is you do not have to follow God's Holy law, the ten Commandments. You can pick and chose what days YOU and your GROUP make holy...hmmm...Remember in Malachi God says "I am the Lord God I change not"......so when He gives you Commandments written by His own finger in stone should you not keep them?????..but you have free will..
Your Biblical references you gave are not even close to the subject, although Colossians 2 might be interpreted by one who is not learned in the Bible to support you it actually says not to judge someone for keeping the sabbath, as the early gentile pagans were doing to their associates who had turned Christian, and what you are doing now, to one who keeps Gods Holy Sabbath day....do not judge for that is what Paul is trying to tell you!

[Jed]

Not done away with, but fulfilled by Jesus (Matt 5:17-18).

Now in the NT the 10 commandments are written in our hearts when we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior (Romans 2:14-15).

The 10 commandments were given to the Jews to reveal to them they had a sin nature. The commandments represented the nature and character of God. Jesus lived a sinless life and when we accept him as Lord and Savior we receive that righteousness that the Law revealed that Jesus fulfilled. (Eph 4:24) ;)

Yes they are written on our hearts all ten of them..you are right to that point....However Jesus said not on jot or tittle would be changed in God's law until Heaven and earth pass away...have you noticed...it has not happened so they are all in effect yet...Matthew 5.18
Paul said "do we make void the law through faith, God forbid we establish the law" romans 3.31...

[Jed]

Jed

I recommend you meditate on the books of Galatians and Hebrews to understand how Jesus fulfilled the OT law and sacrifices and how the OT was replaced by the NT. After that meditate on the book of Ephesians to understand who you are in Jesus Christ. God bless.

You would probably be better off to read and meditate on the words of Jesus in the Gospels, as these words are the whole basis for the New Covenant and salvation!

[Jed]

I gave it, look it up

You made the statement, can you not back it up with scripture?

[historyb]

You made the statement, can you not back it up with scripture?

You need to look, I have.

[RoyS]

Jed,
You need to calm down, and actually READ your Bible. We are no longer under the law. If we were, Christ's sacrifice was of no effect.

[The Unaltered Gospel]

Yes they are written on our hearts all ten of them..you are right to that point....However Jesus said not on jot or tittle would be changed in God's law until Heaven and earth pass away...have you noticed...it has not happened so they are all in effect yet...Matthew 5.18
Paul said "do we make void the law through faith, God forbid we establish the law" romans 3.31...

Paul warned the Galatian church of mixing the Law with Grace in the book of Galatians (Gal 1:6-9). Oh foolish Jed, who has bewitched you, are you so foolish having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?

In Jesus, the work is finished. If you live and teach that elements of the law must be incorporated into your life as a Christian, then you are teaching what Jesus did is not enough. In doing so, you are turning from grace back to works for the fullness of your salvation. It would do you well to read the warning given in Hebrews and do not take lightly the firmness in which it is given. Hebrews 3:8-12, 6:4-8, 10:28-30, 38-39.

Again, you cannot mix the law with grace, doing so cannot produce the abundant life promised by Jesus. Your Father wants you living a New Covenant Life, why would you try to govern it with Old Covenant law? God bless. ;)

[Hansc]

From post #23


Why does the Pharisee spirit get so angry about these supposed Sabbath violations? The hidden reason is obvious. The modern Pharisee has not really comprehended or is appreciative of what the principle of grace is really all about. They are secretly more of a “works” person.

To them, Christianity is more of a system of works, character building activities, exercises and rituals from which merit accrues. That is why the modern day Pharisee will often talk about how what they are doing is “more pleasing to God”.

Note how Jed responded shorthly afterward:


You can pick and chose what days YOU and your GROUP make holy...hmmm...

Herein is the heart of the legalist revealed, to them it's about days and rituals, exercises. Notice how it's about Holy days and Holy rituals. Yet, Christians worship a living Savior in spirit. It is NOT a "Holy day" we have, as much as a living relationship with a Holy person. It's not about proper rituals, days etc, it's about a living relationship.

[Hansc]

Continuing in our look at how Jesus and the Pharisee's interacted over the Sabbath

John 5:16
And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the Sabbath day.

The ancient Pharisees were noted as “Sabbath violation” accusers. The modern day Pharisee is no different. Being of a “works” orientation, the modern day Pharisee, makes a special effort to focus on the old Mosaic Sabbath, because the observance of the Jewish Sabbath day presents extraordinary opportunities for the performance of merit accruing works.

These Pharisees want rules, exercises, and character building rituals. They do not really understand grace, keeping a day is the mask for their “works” mind set. They fail to see that the reign of the Law has given way to grace in Christ.

John 9:16
Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the Sabbath day.


The modern day spirit of the Pharisee is detected when people become upset about what they claim to be Jewish Sabbath violations, all of course for the sake of religious propriety.

The Pharisees believed that they were more pleasing to God than Jesus, because they kept the Jewish Sabbath, while Jesus, they accused of violating the Jewish Sabbath.

The modern day Pharisees are detected by their concern about how one day is more “pleasing” to God than another day.

Modern day Pharisees have even been known to slam the celebration of Christ’s resurrection, just because they deem that it is not done on the right day.

[Jed]

Jed,
You need to calm down, and actually READ your Bible. We are no longer under the law. If we were, Christ's sacrifice was of no effect.

RoyS..I am so calm I am falling asleep here...Jesus said in John 14(15) "IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS...AND IN MATTHEW 19(17) "TO ENTER INTO LIFE KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS"..He identified these as the Ten Commandments...do you not believe Jesus? Obviously not..time you READ your Bible Roy! Everbody's favourite Paul even said.."do we make void the law through faith? God forbid, we establish the law"...so who you going to believe Roy...

[Jed]

Continuing in our look at how Jesus and the Pharisee's interacted over the Sabbath

John 5:16
And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the Sabbath day.

The ancient Pharisees were noted as “Sabbath violation” accusers. The modern day Pharisee is no different. Being of a “works” orientation, the modern day Pharisee, makes a special effort to focus on the old Mosaic Sabbath, because the observance of the Jewish Sabbath day presents extraordinary opportunities for the performance of merit accruing works.

These Pharisees want rules, exercises, and character building rituals. They do not really understand grace, keeping a day is the mask for their “works” mind set. They fail to see that the reign of the Law has given way to grace in Christ.

John 9:16
Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the Sabbath day.


The modern day spirit of the Pharisee is detected when people become upset about what they claim to be Jewish Sabbath violations, all of course for the sake of religious propriety.

The Pharisees believed that they were more pleasing to God than Jesus, because they kept the Jewish Sabbath, while Jesus, they accused of violating the Jewish Sabbath.

The modern day Pharisees are detected by their concern about how one day is more “pleasing” to God than another day.

Modern day Pharisees have even been known to slam the celebration of Christ’s resurrection, just because they deem that it is not done on the right day.\\
He
H[SIZE=2]Hansc...., as you should know the pharisees placed a lot of manmade traditions on the Sabbath day..which were not intended by God...legalistic, something like the extra Biblical man made traditions, of the majority of todays professing christian churches..same legalism as the Pharisees were using.....so the Pharisees were shocked when Jesus the created of the Sabbath day said it's okay to heal Jesus saying He can forgive sins, heal, and He is from God....the Sabbath was never in doubt...Jesus even said He is lord of the Sabbath Matthew 12(8)...and Jesus kept each Sabbath day..no other day..and made no mention of any changes....so who you going to believe Hansc...Jesus or some fourth centruy Roman pope who decided to change it to Sunday to keep the sungod followers happy...

[RoyS]

RoyS..I am so calm I am falling asleep here...Jesus said in John 14(15) "IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS...AND IN MATTHEW 19(17) "TO ENTER INTO LIFE KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS"..He identified these as the Ten Commandments...do you not believe Jesus? Obviously not..time you READ your Bible Roy! Everbody's favourite Paul even said.."do we make void the law through faith? God forbid, we establish the law"...so who you going to believe Roy...
Wow. I feel sorry for you. How is it, keeping all of the 613 laws passed down to Moses? I HAVE read my Bible, my friend, many times. That's why I know that Jesus has freed us from the law. Did He die in vain?
BTW, I'm going to believe Jesus Christ.

[The Unaltered Gospel]

Jed

Paul warned the Galatian church of mixing the Law with Grace in the book of Galatians (Gal 1:6-9). Oh foolish Jed, who has bewitched you, are you so foolish having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?

In Jesus, the work is finished. If you live and teach that elements of the law must be incorporated into your life as a Christian, then you are teaching what Jesus did is not enough. In doing so, you are turning from grace back to works for the fullness of your salvation. It would do you well to read the warning given in Hebrews and do not take lightly the firmness in which it is given. Hebrews 3:8-12, 6:4-8, 10:28-30, 38-39.

Again, you cannot mix the law with grace, doing so cannot produce the abundant life promised by Jesus. Your Father wants you living a New Covenant Life, why would you try to govern it with Old Covenant law? God bless.

[The Unaltered Gospel]

Jed

Also, read Hebrews chapters 8 -10 to see the transition of the Old covenant to the New covenant. You do realize Jesus fulfilled the Old covenant and it has been replaced by the New covenant, right?

Hebrews 10:9
"Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second".

[Jed]

Jed

Also, read Hebrews chapters 8 -10 to see the transition of the Old covenant to the New covenant. You do realize Jesus fulfilled the Old covenant and it has been replaced by the New covenant, right?

Hebrews 10:9
"Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second".

[B]Yes Jesus did fulfill SOME of the Old Covenant....The Sacrificial system, circumcision, and many of the 613 of the law of Moses, which God gave him for the people...Of course God's royal law, the ten Commandments were not affected, as these were written by God himself, in stone...and of course, as you shouldknow God never changes Malachi 3(6).....YOU ARE AWARE WHAT A COVENANT IS, AND HOW IT WORKS..OR A TESTAMENT IF YOU WISH TO CALL IT THAT?? It appears you might be a tad confused on this subject! /B]
,

[Jed]

Wow. I feel sorry for you. How is it, keeping all of the 613 laws passed down to Moses? I HAVE read my Bible, my friend, many times. That's why I know that Jesus has freed us from the law. Did He die in vain?
BTW, I'm going to believe Jesus Christ.


Do not have to keep the 613 laws..you are really confused Roy...the law referred to by Jesus is the Ten commandments...of which the 7th day Sabbath day is the fourth..you can do animal sacrificies if you want, or many of the other 613, but you should learn to stick to what Jesus taught in the Gospels and quit adding and subtracting from the word of God..as you should know this is forbidden in Deut 4.2 and Rev 22...Once you pray about all this and read Jesus words in the Gospels and really concentrate on them it will become clear to you Roy.

[HighBeams]

Well, I've been reading this thread and pondering Jed's arguments about keeping the Law (i.e., the Ten Commandments).

Jed, you don't seem to accept the idea of "by grace alone". You keep throwing the Ten Commandments into the mix. It seems to me that you are espousing the belief that salvation is by grace through personal acceptance of the sacrificial death of Christ on the cross plus keeping the Ten Commandments. Is this what you are truly saying?

[Hansc]

It is interesting to note that in the New Testament, book of Acts, the word Sabbath is recorded nine times, yet never, as a day that Christians use to gather on. Most of the time, it occurs as one of the Apostles goes and seeks to persuade them that DO NOT YET believe in Christ. In essence, the apostles on the Sabbath go to speak to NON-BELIEVERS.

Also of note, the term, Sabbath only appears in the epistles ONCE. And that is in reference to not letting people judge you for NOT KEEPING IT.

Nowhere in the New Testament is it even hinted at that God’s people met on the Sabbath or in fact even hold it with any special regard or affection. In all the epistles, whenever believer’s obligations to God are set out, the observance of the Sabbath is NEVER mentioned. In fact, the observance of The Sabbath held to be conflict with the most basic principles of grace.

There are those within the Christian confession, who would seek to make Sunday into something of a “Christian Sabbath”. There are even those individuals who seek to replace the Sunday celebration with a Saturday observance. Strictly speaking, as Christians we do not so much “observe” a day as the Jews do in regards to the Sabbath. The Christian Sunday celebration has no relationship with the Jewish Sabbath. We celebrate on Sunday, because it was on Sunday that God raised up Jesus from the dead.

[Hansc]

Notice that in the Scriptures, after the resurrection, virtually every important event of religious significance occurred on the first day of the week, Sunday, the Lord’s Day. It seems like God was telling the church something in regards to the observance of days.

Here are just a few.

I. On the First Day of the week, Sunday, the Lord’s Day, Jesus rose from the dead.

The very fact that the early church met and worshiped on Sunday is one of the great evidences that the resurrection was on Sunday morning. Especially since many of the early Christians were Jews and where used to Sabbath celebrations, yet another day was chosen for Christian gatherings. We pattern our lives on Christ’s resurrection and not after Mosaic legislation.

II. On the First Day of the week, Sunday, the Lord’s Day, Jesus ascended into heaven for the first time after His earthly ministry.

John 20:17-22
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Notice how in verse 17, Jesus tells Mary not to touch Him, but to go tell His disciples that he ascends to the Father. Then later on the same day, Sunday Evening, he shows up and then does allow people to see His wounds. He would have had to make the ascend between verse 17 and 19.

III. On the First Day of the week, Sunday, the Lord’s Day, Jesus appeared to His disciples for the first time and gave them peace.

Note verse 19, this was Christ’s appearance to His gathered disciples. It was on the first day of the week, the Lord’s Day, Sunday. The resurrected Christ chooses Sunday to first meet with His gathered disciples.

IV. On the First Day of the week, Sunday, the Lord’s Day, Jesus first broke bread with His disciples after His resurrection.

Twice in the Scriptures we see the resurrected Christ observing the breaking of bread with His disciples; both times it was on the first day of the week and NOT on the Sabbath. Once was on the road to Emmaus, and once with the gathered disciples in the upper room in Jerusalem. These were the first examples of the post resurrection communion service. Jesus chose to observe the communion on Sunday. He could have chose the Sabbath, but he did NOT. Perhaps the Sabbath keeping legalists know something Jesus did not?

V. On the First Day of the week, Sunday, the Lord’s Day, Jesus opened the understanding of His disciples.

Luke 24:32
And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?


On the road to Emmaus, Jesus opened up the Scriptures and began to open the understanding of the two disciples.

Luke 24:45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,


Later the same day, Jesus opens up the understanding of a larger gathering of His followers.

VI. On the First Day of the week, Sunday, the Lord’s Day, Jesus gave the disciples the task of world evangelism. The “Great Commission” was given by Jesus on “The Lord’s day”.

In John 20:21, quoted above we see that the great commission was given on Sunday.

[Hansc]

VII. On the First Day of the week, Sunday, the Lord’s Day, Jesus breathed upon His disciples and imparted the Holy Spirit to them.

Then in John 20:22, The disciples receive the Holy Spirit, that is to say they are “born again” when Jesus breathes on them. This action of breathing is presented only twice in Scripture in this manner. Once when God breathed life into man, and once when Jesus breathed new life into man.

VIII. On the First Day of the week, Sunday, the Lord’s Day, seven weeks after the resurrection, the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples at Pentecost./

IX. On the First Day of the week, Sunday, the Lord’s Day, the Holy Spirit directed Paul to gather the believers together and to preach to them.

Acts 20:6-9
And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days. And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. . .

And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead..…...

Notice when the disciples came together to break bread, it was on Sunday, the Lord’s Day. Now Paul was in town for seven days and was getting ready to leave on Monday morning. So He had to be there on the Jewish Sabbath, but it was on Sunday that the disciples got together and Paul delivered the message. On a side note, you think that you have heard some long messages. Paul preached until Midnight!! The Scriptures say that Paul was LONG preaching. Well we can sure say Amen to that.

X. On the First Day of the week, Sunday, the Lord’s Day, was the day that Paul instructed the Corinthians to set aside their finances for the Lord’s work.

I Corinthians 16:1-2
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him

The Corinthians were told by Paul to put aside money, that was to be given to the church in Jerusalem as a gift. Paul didn’t want to have to round up the money when he gat there, so he had the Corinthians collect and set aside the money for Jerusalem. He had them do this on Sunday, as he also had the church in Galatia do the same.

XI. On the First Day of the week, Sunday, the Lord’s Day, The Lord Jesus appeared to the apostle John on the island of Patmos and gave the /Revelation of things to come.

Jesus could have appeared to John on any day. Here in the book of Revelation, we see John worshipping God in the spirit on Sunday. Jesus appears to him, and gives to John what becomes the book of Revelation.

Jesus was born a Jew, under the law, and as such during His life He followed the Mosaic law which included the Sabbath, yet when he rose from the dead, in newness of life, He broke bread, preached from the Scriptures, ascended into heaven, gave the Holy Ghost to His followers and issued the “Great Commission” all on Sunday, the first day of the week, the Lord’s Day.

Jesus could have chosen to do all these things on the Sabbath, yet He did not. People say that we should follow Christ’s example, and I believe we should. Let us follow the example of the resurrected Christ and do the same things He did on Sunday.


All of these events listed occurred on the Lord’s Day, the first day of the week rather than on the Jewish Sabbath. By these actions of God we understand that Sunday is a proper day of celebration. Actually any day is a good day to worship God.

These eleven different actions that God performed on Sunday give us examples in the Scripture, as to what we are also to do on Sunday. They involve gathering ourselves together, reading, hearing and preaching the Word, taking up offerings and collections, observing communion, and most of all remembering and worshiping Him who died for us and rose again for us on Sunday, the Lord’s Day, the first day of the week.

This is no accident, God did things on Sunday to establish a pattern and set an example for the church to follow.

[Hansc]

We have THREE Scriptures from the Old Testament that support the claim that the Sabbath is for the Jews under the Old Covenant.

We also have ELEVEN examples of what Jesus and the early church did on SUNDAY.

We should follow Jesus example.

We see NINE different things that Jesus did on SUNDAY after His resurrection.
The Bible does NOT show Jesus doing anything on the Sabbath AFTER His resurrection.

After His resurrection:

Jesus preached on Sunday.

Jesus broke bread on Sunday.

Jesus opened the Word on Sunday.

Jesus gave the Spirit on Sunday.

Jesus gave revelation on Sunday.

Jesus gave the "Great Commission" on Sunday.

Jesus gave salvation on Sunday.


The Bible records Jesus doing all these things on SUNDAY.
The Bible does NOT record Jesus doing these things on the Sabbath.

Follow Jesus example.

[The Unaltered Gospel]

[B]Yes Jesus did fulfill SOME of the Old Covenant....The Sacrificial system, circumcision, and many of the 613 of the law of Moses, which God gave him for the people...Of course God's royal law, the ten Commandments were not affected, as these were written by God himself, in stone...and of course, as you shouldknow God never changes Malachi 3(6).....YOU ARE AWARE WHAT A COVENANT IS, AND HOW IT WORKS..OR A TESTAMENT IF YOU WISH TO CALL IT THAT?? It appears you might be a tad confused on this subject! /B]
,

Jed, what part of he taketh away the first, that he may establish the second don't you understand? This would include fulfilling the 10 commandments. Jesus did that by living a sinless life fulfilling the 10 commandments which man could not do due to their sin nature and God provides that righteousness( God's nature and character) that the 10 commandments revealed to us when we are born again. All of the OT was fulfilled in Hebrews 10:9 and replaced by the second (NT) :D


In Jesus, the work is finished. If you live and teach that elements of the law must be incorporated into your life as a Christian, then you are teaching what Jesus did is not enough. In doing so, you are turning from grace back to works for the fullness of your salvation. It would do you well to read the warning given in Hebrews and do not take lightly the firmness in which it is given. Hebrews 3:8-12, 6:4-8, 10:28-30, 38-39.

Again, you cannot mix the law with grace, doing so cannot produce the abundant life promised by Jesus. Your Father wants you living a New Covenant Life, why would you try to govern it with Old Covenant law? God bless.

[RoyS]

Do not have to keep the 613 laws..you are really confused Roy...the law referred to by Jesus is the Ten commandments...of which the 7th day Sabbath day is the fourth..you can do animal sacrificies if you want, or many of the other 613, but you should learn to stick to what Jesus taught in the Gospels and quit adding and subtracting from the word of God..as you should know this is forbidden in Deut 4.2 and Rev 22...Once you pray about all this and read Jesus words in the Gospels and really concentrate on them it will become clear to you Roy.
No, I am not 'confused' one iota. You are the one claiming that one must keep the law in order to be saved. I know that this is not what Christ taught. We are saved by faith, through the grace of God. How many times did Christ chide the Pharisees for their mule-headed adherence to the law? You say that we "Do not have to keep the 613 laws", so, you get to pick and choose? I'm curious, would you admonish Jesus Christ for His actions on the Sabbath? He and His disciples picked corn to eat on the Sabbath; He healed people on the Sabbath, and He told a healed man to carry his bed on the Sabbath. All violations of the law. Will you scold Him, when you stand before Him?

[Benjie]

Yes Jesus did fulfill SOME of the Old Covenant....If Jesus did not fulfill the entirety of the Old Covenant, then He wouldn't be God.

You are treading on very dangerous ground.


The Sacrificial system, circumcision, and many of the 613 of the law of Moses, which God gave him for the people...Of course God's royal law, the ten Commandments were not affected, as these were written by God himself, in stone...Which, according to scripture, is obsolete now that Christ has come and completed it. In it's entirety. Or He wouldn't be God.


and of course, as you shouldknow God never changes Malachi 3(6).....YOU ARE AWARE WHAT A COVENANT IS, AND HOW IT WORKS..OR A TESTAMENT IF YOU WISH TO CALL IT THAT?? It appears you might be a tad confused on the subject!
,It appears that you are more than a tad condescending. That does not bode well for your time here.

[RoyS]

If Jesus did not fulfill the entirety of the Old Covenant, then He wouldn't be God.

You are treading on very dangerous ground.

Which, according to scripture, is obsolete now that Christ has come and completed it. In it's entirety. Or He wouldn't be God.

It appears that you are more than a tad condescending. That does not bode well for your time here.
Lol. You know me, Benjie... condescension kind of trips my trigger.

[Jed]

Well, I've been reading this thread and pondering Jed's arguments about keeping the Law (i.e., the Ten Commandments).

Jed, you don't seem to accept the idea of "by grace alone". You keep throwing the Ten Commandments into the mix. It seems to me that you are espousing the belief that salvation is by grace through personal acceptance of the sacrificial death of Christ on the cross plus keeping the Ten Commandments. Is this what you are truly saying?

High beams....Do you not know that faith without works is dead according to James 2(14), and Paul said "should we sin more so grace abound? God forbid" Romans 6(1)..and what is the Definition of sin?????// Sin is transgression of the law..according to Apostle John 1 John 3(4)...

[Jed]

It is interesting to note that in the New Testament, book of Acts, the word Sabbath is recorded nine times, yet never, as a day that Christians use to gather on. Most of the time, it occurs as one of the Apostles goes and seeks to persuade them that DO NOT YET believe in Christ. In essence, the apostles on the Sabbath go to speak to NON-BELIEVERS.

Also of note, the term, Sabbath only appears in the epistles ONCE. And that is in reference to not letting people judge you for NOT KEEPING IT.

Nowhere in the New Testament is it even hinted at that God’s people met on the Sabbath or in fact even hold it with any special regard or affection. In all the epistles, whenever believer’s obligations to God are set out, the observance of the Sabbath is NEVER mentioned. In fact, the observance of The Sabbath held to be conflict with the most basic principles of grace.

There are those within the Christian confession, who would seek to make Sunday into something of a “Christian Sabbath”. There are even those individuals who seek to replace the Sunday celebration with a Saturday observance. Strictly speaking, as Christians we do not so much “observe” a day as the Jews do in regards to the Sabbath. The Christian Sunday celebration has no relationship with the Jewish Sabbath. We celebrate on Sunday, because it was on Sunday that God raised up Jesus from the dead.

There is no Biblical authority for the first day of the week none zero, unless you want to play God and try and make the first day of the week Holy and make up your own Commandments...The Apostles kept the Sabbath long after Jesus died...never kept the first day of the week...unless they had a meal mentioned once in Acts 20 (7) sorry Hansc this does not qualify as a precedent for a "religion" God pleasing ceremony...or in Corinthians when the early Christians gathered money and supplies for the relief movement..they did it on the first day of the week so they would not desecrate the seventh day Sabbath....You keep saying Jesus rose on the first day of the week, while this is doubtful in scripture that He rose on the first day of the week, even if He did..there is no commandment from Him or God to keep it Holy, nor any mention of such a sanctification of the first day of the week.... it comes from the 4thcentury pope ofl the Roman church to keep the sun god worshippers in Rome happy.the pope figured he has the power of God to make days Holy and change around God's laws.....Google... James Cardinal Gibbsons..Confessions of Roman Catholic and Protestants

[Aquila]

By Jed:


There is no Biblical authority for the first day of the week none zero, unless you want to play God and try and make the first day of the week Holy and make up your own Commandments...The Apostles kept the Sabbath long after Jesus died...never kept the first day of the week...unless they had a meal mentioned once in Acts 20 (7) sorry Hansc this does not qualify as a precedent for a "religion" God pleasing ceremony

Why don't we say neither one?

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Day can mean any particular day.

Jed, have you done any studies on the first fruits? The first day after the passover sabbath?

[RoyS]

There is no Biblical authority for the first day of the week none zero, unless you want to play God and try and make the first day of the week Holy and make up your own Commandments...The Apostles kept the Sabbath long after Jesus died...never kept the first day of the week...unless they had a meal mentioned once in Acts 20 (7) sorry Hansc this does not qualify as a precedent for a "religion" God pleasing ceremony...or in Corinthians when the early Christians gathered money and supplies for the relief movement..they did it on the first day of the week so they would not desecrate the seventh day Sabbath....You keep saying Jesus rose on the first day of the week, while this is doubtful in scripture that He rose on the first day of the week, even if He did..there is no commandment from Him or God to keep it Holy, nor any mention of such a sanctification of the first day of the week.... it comes from the 4thcentury pope ofl the Roman church to keep the sun god worshippers in Rome happy.the pope figured he has the power of God to make days Holy and change around God's laws.....Google... James Cardinal Gibbsons..Confessions of Roman Catholic and Protestants
There is no Biblical authority for ANY day of the week, in the new covenant. Answer post #50.

[Aquila]

A key to this is the first fruits. A good study. The day after the passover sabbath.

[HighBeams]

High beams....Do you not know that faith without works is dead according to James 2(14), and Paul said "should we sin more so grace abound? God forbid" Romans 6(1)..and what is the Definition of sin?????// Sin is transgression of the law..according to Apostle John 1 John 3(4)...


Jed, quit dancing around my question. Do you believe that salvation is obtained by Jesus + your own works?

[Hansc]

Benji responded to Jed:


If Jesus did not fulfill the entirety of the Old Covenant, then He wouldn't be God.

I find it amazing that some people that promote themselves as instructors of the Bible and as beacons of light in regard to what God wants suggest that Jesus got some of the job done and that we need to still add a bit more to get it all done.

[The Unaltered Gospel]

Jed,

What part of he taketh away the first, that he may establish the second don't you understand? This would include fulfilling the 10 commandments. Jesus did that by living a sinless life fulfilling the 10 commandments which man could not do due to their sin nature and God provides that righteousness( God's nature and character) that the 10 commandments revealed to us when we are born again. All of the OT was fulfilled in Hebrews 10:9 and replaced by the second (NT)


In Jesus, the work is finished. If you live and teach that elements of the law must be incorporated into your life as a Christian, then you are teaching what Jesus did is not enough. In doing so, you are turning from grace back to works for the fullness of your salvation. It would do you well to read the warning given in Hebrews and do not take lightly the firmness in which it is given. Hebrews 3:8-12, 6:4-8, 10:28-30, 38-39.

Again, you cannot mix the law with grace, doing so cannot produce the abundant life promised by Jesus. Your Father wants you living a New Covenant Life, why would you try to govern it with Old Covenant law? God bless.

[other one]

You would probably be better off to read and meditate on the words of Jesus in the Gospels, as these words are the whole basis for the New Covenant and salvation!


Hummmm,,,, Question:

Matt 25:30-26:1
eth.

31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 "And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats ; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink? 38'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39'And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


NASB


which of the ten commandments did these people break, for it is sure they are going to hell. I agree that we should read what Jesus said in the New Testament...

[Hansc]

Jed

We should follow Jesus example.

We see NINE different things that Jesus did on SUNDAY after His resurrection.
The Bible does NOT show Jesus doing anything on the Sabbath AFTER His resurrection.

After His resurrection:

Jesus preached on Sunday.

Jesus broke bread on Sunday.

Jesus opened the Word on Sunday.

Jesus gave the Spirit on Sunday.

Jesus gave revelation on Sunday.

Jesus gave the "Great Commission" on Sunday.

Jesus gave salvation on Sunday.


The Bible records Jesus doing all these things on SUNDAY.

The Bible does NOT record Jesus doing these things on the Sabbath.


Jed, here we see what the Bible shows that Jesus did under the New Covenant.

Are you going to follow Jesus example

or

Are you going to continue with your doctrine?

Which one?

[Hansc]

For most people God seems to be the end result of a sequence of reasoning, a chain of intellectual checks and balances, the conclusion of an argument soundly presented, rather than a living vital relationship, and yet Christ came just for such a living relationship.

Many people who believe in God, actually come to their belief by reasoning their way to God, and yet reason by its very nature can not bring us to God. People may call our attention to the beauty and order of nature, the immensity and complexity of space, the intricacies and wonders of the material world and so on. They reason that because these things are, that He must therefore be, they present essentially an argument based upon design, yet God can not be perceived or experienced as the consequence of an argument, no matter how well presented. God to many is a logical conclusion to an intellectual exercise, and yet, a person can not experience God as the end result of intellectual exercises. This is not really a living relationship, this is merely thinking, speculating and intellectualizing about God from a distance.

Others, will come to the conclusion of the existence of God, because of their belief in abstract values, such as truth, goodness, beauty, justice and so on. This is also reasoning from a distance.
Such reasonings, while perhaps making true statements, have at their core, the commonality that they do not know God in personal experience. While acknowledging the existence of God, they do not really think of Him as knowable in the sense that we know a personal acquaintance. The possibility of a personal relationship with Him has not fully penetrated into their thinking.

While the full truth of this applies primarily to the unsaved, there is a sense where this also in a measure taints many believers. Many Christians, although they believe in Christ, and are born again, and have received His Spirit, yet still, in a measure, God for them is unreal.

They will often live their lives attempting to love an ideal, or to prove or be loyal to a doctrine, a set of principles, or a theology. Their adherence is to this or that theology, or doctrine, or denomination.


Yet, it is to Christ that we are called. It is our relationship to Him that is what really matters. It is knowing Him in the Spirit in a fuller, deeper and richer way as we walk the path set before us. It is our personal experience with Christ that people are looking for, not so much a more effective line of reasonings.


For me, going through this thread is a wonderful living example of living for a doctrine, a principle, a theology. It seems no matter how clearly Jed is shown the Scriptures, shown Christ's example, shown the apostle's example, shown the early church's example, he still lives for and clings to his misguided theology.

[Jed]

[QUOTE=Hansc;3004]Jed

We should follow Jesus example.

We see NINE different things that Jesus did on SUNDAY after His resurrection.
The Bible does NOT show Jesus doing anything on the Sabbath AFTER His resurrection.

After His resurrection:

Jesus preached on Sunday.

Jesus broke bread on Sunday.

Jesus opened the Word on Sunday.

Jesus gave the Spirit on Sunday.

Jesus gave revelation on Sunday.

Jesus gave the "Great Commission" on Sunday.

Jesus gave salvation on Sunday.


The Bible records Jesus doing all these things on SUNDAY.

The Bible does NOT record Jesus doing these things on the Sabbath.


Jed, here we see what the Bible shows that Jesus did under the New Covenant.

Are you going to follow Jesus example

or

Are you going to continue with your doctrine?

Which one?[/QUOTe
MY DOCTRINE? I am giving quotes out of the Bible, the Holy word of God, which is more than you are doing....You continue to ignore Jesus commandments in the Gospels? Why? You want to keep pagan Rome credible it appears...read my posts carefully and look at the quotes from the Bible, and you will learn the truth and it will set you free..as per Jesus...in the meantime please provide Bible references for your personal comments!

[Jed]

The four Gospels are the "Good news" of Salvation. Jesus teachings in the four Gospels are the basis for salvation and the whole basis for the New Covenant.. When He died on the Cross the New Covenant/Testament was sealed and by His blood our salvation is obtained, if we follow His instructions...His instructions were "if you love me keep my Commandments" John 14.15 and to enter into life keep the Commandments Matthew 19.17...He, in Matthew 5, shows that not only are we to follow the physical commandments but also the spirit of God's law..the ten Commandments..He in Matthew 5 says not one jot or tittle will be changed in God's law until Heaven and Earth pass away, and all is fulfilled...Heaven and earth are still here, so no changes to God's Holy law...The fourth commandments in this Holy law is "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy"...pagan Rome 4th century and its pagan based church decided to change the official day of worship from the Holy Sabbath day to sunday..the first day of the week to keep the sun god worshippi9ng crowd happy..This created much hardship for the true Christians who were following God's Holy Sabbath day...some changed, some kept both, some were martyrd, and many fled to preserve the proper day...this pagan roman system carried over into the protestant ranks, and represents the msjority of "christians" to day...Jesus said..Narrow is the way that leads to salvation few will find it...wide is the way that leads to destructions...hmm I wonder why! Jesus kept the Sabbath even though blasphemers say He did not...and they say anyone who keeps Gods law is Legalistic...ooh is that right...well if you care to look it up..legalistic means to add additional man made tradition to God's law and teachings...the Pharisees were legalistic..as they added consider man made tradition to God's law and the Holy Sabbath
Jesus straightened them out on the scare...and He said..He is lord of the Sabbath day...The present day sunday 1st day of the week crowd are legalistic, worse than the Pharisees..at least they tried to follow the Torah, which is more than todays professing "christians" do...they change God's Holy Commandments at their own whim, and add and subtract to the word of God, contrary to the Bible ....this is legalism and hypocrasy at it's worse....Jesus called the Pharisees a "brood of vipers" or den of snakes because of their legalism...what would He call todays so called "christians" who ignore God's ten commandments and decide on their own which days they will keep Holy...It would be a lot worse than He called the Pharisees thats for sure!...Jesus followed the Sabbath, the Apostles followed the Sabbath throughout their ministries and their lives, so it is a given it will always be in effect, as God wrote it personally on tablet of stone and placed it in the Ark of the Covenant...God gave humankind free will, to follow His words to eternal life, or our own path to destruction (sin)...Transgression of the law is Sin..according to Aposte John...

[Jed]

[QUOTE=Hansc;3004]Jed

We should follow Jesus example.

We see NINE different things that Jesus did on SUNDAY after His resurrection.
The Bible does NOT show Jesus doing anything on the Sabbath AFTER His resurrection.

After His resurrection:

Jesus preached on Sunday.

Jesus broke bread on Sunday.

Jesus opened the Word on Sunday.

Jesus gave the Spirit on Sunday.

Jesus gave revelation on Sunday.

Jesus gave the "Great Commission" on Sunday.

Jesus gave salvation on Sunday.


The Bible records Jesus doing all these things on SUNDAY.

The Bible does NOT record Jesus doing these things on the Sabbath.


Jed, here we see what the Bible shows that Jesus did under the New Covenant.

Are you going to follow Jesus example

or

Are you going to continue with your doctrine?

Which one?[/QUOTe
MY DOCTRINE? I am giving quotes out of the Bible, the Holy word of God, which is more than you are doing....You continue to ignore Jesus commandments in the Gospels? Why? You want to keep pagan Rome credible it appears...read my posts carefully and look at the quotes from the Bible, and you will learn the truth and it will set you free..as per Jesus...in the meantime please provide Bible references for your personal comments!

[Jed]

Hansc while your list is impressive, right or wrong...you have been unable to provide a commandment or biblical verse where sunday the first day of the week was ever blessed, commanded or made holy by god..why not? Because there is nothing in the bible for this...check out by googling james cardinal gibbons, confessions of roman catholic nad protestants regarding the sabbath and sunday..it will help you understand the subject better..

Oh yes, i will follow jesus teachings, and try and walk as he walked, but following all god's commandments and trying to avoid sinning...can you say the same thing?...this is not my doctrine but the word of god...like or not hansc..that is what it is!.

[dave]

...Rome 4th century and its pagan based church decided to change the official day of worship from the Holy Sabbath day to sunday..the first day of the week to keep the sun god worshippi9ng crowd happy..

Seriously? Have you got a credible source to confirm this other than Woodrow's ridiculous fanatasy based on an image he thought he saw in a picture of a window at the Vatican that actually, as it turns out, is a picture depicting the Holy Spirit...in the form of a dove exuding rays of light? So I guess you reject using a dove to symbolize the Holy Spirit?

Those silly Catholics...giving us all kinds of unbiblical things, like the Holy Trinity...and fasting (oh wait...that's actually Biblical...referred to in Scripture nearly 2 dozen times) what a bunch of pagans! ;)


This created much hardship for the true Christians who were following God's Holy Sabbath day...some changed, some kept both, some were martyrd, and many fled to preserve the proper day...this pagan roman system carried over into the protestant ranks, and represents the msjority of "christians" to day...

Credible source for this fantasy? I think Hansc and others have provided more than substantial, credible, authoritative references from Scripture showing us the example to follow by the Apostles and Christ...making Sunday the Lord's Day...unless you are about to claim that Jesus was not an authority, or the Apostles had no Authority granted to them by Christ?



He call todays so called "christians" who ignore God's ten commandments ...as God wrote it personally on tablet of stone and placed it in the Ark of the Covenant...

I actually agree with you about needing to obey the 10 Commandments. But here's what you might be missing...we have a New Covenant...and He has fulfilled the law (not abolished, but fulfilled). We are bound to obey His Command, for He says so. And the "New" doesn't mean all the "Old" just goes away...we still cannot murder or lie or cheeat or steal or covet....but the Sabbath was specific to the Jews...we are Christians...we keep Holy the Lord's Day, which He showed for us as being Sunday.
As a side, if the Old Covenant was that written on stone and stored in the Old Arc of the Covenant...and the New is Christ...who is the Arc of the New Covenant? But I digress...

[Hansc]

Jed


you have been unable to provide . . . a biblical verse where sunday the first day of the week was ever blessed

So you don't believe that Jesus choosing Sunday to RISE FROM THE DEAD, break bread, deliver the Word, meet with His followers, give them the Spirit and give them their ministries "blesses" the day?

Pretty odd conclusion you come to.


commanded or made holy by god

As has been pointed out, Christians worship a person, not a day. Christians celebrate a person, not a day. The legalists focus on the day, Christians focus on the person of Christ.


Oh yes, i will follow jesus teachings

Good, because after He inaugurated the New Covenant, the Bible shows Christ doing nothing on the Sabbath, ALL His major recorded actions were on Sunday.


Rome 4th century and its pagan based church decided to change the official day of worship from the Holy Sabbath day to sunday..the first day of the week to keep the sun god worshippi9ng crowd happy

You were given ELEVEN Scriptural examples of the church during the time of the apostles meeting, preaching, breaking bread on Sunday. Did you miss that, or fail to read them, or just not comprehend? If not, then why do you bring up this 4th century silliness?

[HighBeams]

Jed said:


Oh yes, i will follow jesus teachings, and try and walk as he walked, but following all god's commandments and trying to avoid sinning...can you say the same thing?...this is not my doctrine but the word of god...like or not hansc..that is what it is!.


Questions: So what happens to you and your salvation when you sin? (And I know that you do sin because we all do!) Do you lose your salvation because you were not obeying the Lord's Ten Commandments? If you lose your salvation every time you sin, do you have a remedy to regain your salvation? What happens to you if you die with unconfessed sin? What do you consider
all god's commandments?

Why were you so inattentive to what you were typing as to miss capitalizing God's name/pronoun--every time? Do you not utterly respect and worship Him? Does He mean so little to you that you would not double-check your typing at least on His Holy Names?

You have no call to snidely ask Hans if he can say the same thing as you about trying to follow Jesus, follow His commands, and avoid sinning. Hans is a very Godly man, which he continually shows here with his application of God's Word to real-life situations. He is also a very learned man in God's Word which he also continually shows in the depth of his answers and the Bible studies he shares with us.

You have shared mostly erroneous interpretations of Bible passages to show your life applications of Bible verses.

[Jed]

Jed

We should follow Jesus example.

We see NINE different things that Jesus did on SUNDAY after His resurrection.
The Bible does NOT show Jesus doing anything on the Sabbath AFTER His resurrection.

After His resurrection:

Jesus preached on Sunday.

Jesus broke bread on Sunday.

Jesus opened the Word on Sunday.

Jesus gave the Spirit on Sunday.

Jesus gave revelation on Sunday.

Jesus gave the "Great Commission" on Sunday.

Jesus gave salvation on Sunday.


The Bible records Jesus doing all these things on SUNDAY.

The Bible does NOT record Jesus doing these things on the Sabbath.


Jed, here we see what the Bible shows that Jesus did under the New Covenant.

Are you going to follow Jesus example

or

Are you going to continue with your doctrine?

Which one?



So what you are saying Hansc...you "christians" can pick and chose your holy days, based on your flawed understanding of the Bible. This despite there being no definitive day of Jesus resurrection...and No Commandment from God or Jesus to keep the resurrection. You fail to recognize the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels, and the whole basis for the New Covenant..you also figure it's okay to follow a pagan day..(sunday) which the pope made "holy" by his "divine authority" in the fourth century, and at the same time ignoring God's commandments...good luck with that...you got lots of company...over a billion followers...no wonder Jesus said "wide is the way that leads to destruction" .Matthew 7(13,14) and "depart from me you who practice lawlessness, I never knew you" Matthew 7 (23)..(lawlessness is failure to follow God's law or SIN...as per 1st John 3(4)

[Titus]

Wrong again skippy! Jesus rose on the first day of the week. You sure are acting arrogantly and hatefully for someone who claims to be a believer.


So what you are saying Hansc...you "christians" can pick and chose your holy days, based on your flawed understanding of the Bible. This despite there being no definitive day of Jesus resurrection...and No Commandment from God or Jesus to keep the resurrection. You fail to recognize the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels, and the whole basis for the New Covenant..you also figure it's okay to follow a pagan day..(sunday) which the pope made "holy" by his "divine authority" in the fourth century, and at the same time ignoring God's commandments...good luck with that...you got lots of company...over a billion followers...no wonder Jesus said "wide is the way that leads to destruction" .Matthew 7(13,14) and "depart from me you who practice lawlessness, I never knew you" Matthew 7 (23)..(lawlessness is failure to follow God's law or SIN...as per 1st John 3(4)

[HighBeams]

Jed, who are your teachers? Where did you learn your doctrines?

[Hansc]

So what you are saying Hansc...you "christians" can pick and chose your holy days, based on your flawed understanding of the Bible. This despite there being no definitive day of Jesus resurrection...and No Commandment from God or Jesus to keep the resurrection. You fail to recognize the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels, and the whole basis for the New Covenant..you also figure it's okay to follow a pagan day)

I note that of all the claims I made concerning what Christ chose to do on Sunday,
you are unable to refute even one.


"christians" can pick and chose your holy days

The religious legalist worships a holy day.
Christians however worship a Holy Person.


there being no definitive day of Jesus resurrection

The Word is clear that on Sunday,
Jesus rose from the dead.

"you christians" did not pick the day of the resurrection
God chose which day to rise on.


No Commandment from God or Jesus to keep the resurrection

Jesus is God.


You fail to recognize the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels

You failed to recognize "the law of Moses" as an expression used by Christ.

I gave you NINE examples of what Jesus did on Sunday,

You recognized none of them

You have been unable to refute any of them.


you also figure it's okay to follow a pagan day

So, Jesus chose to rise on a "pagan" day.

The truth is that all days belong to God.

[HighBeams]

Ignoring me, huh, Jed? Such respect. I suppose you don't really have to answer me. I already know what you'd say. Your personality is very evident in your posts, and your arrogance has no end. You're completely unteachable. I feel very sorry for any female in your life. Jesus never treated women with such disrespect and condescension and never told His followers to do so. Might I remind you that there were several women at the foot of Jesus' cross. The only disciple who was brave enough to do that was John. The rest were hiding up in the hills, watching safely from afar. Only two male followers took Jesus down from the cross and brought spices to prepare the body, but the women were still there. It was the women who followed to see where Jesus' body was entombed. It was the women who came that Sunday morning to finish caring for Jesus' body. It was to women that Jesus first appeared after His resurrection. It was to women that He gave the task of telling the disciples that He'd done exactly as He'd told them He'd do. How dare you denigrate those whom Jesus treated with such respect?


Proverbs 16:18 NASB

Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before stumbling.

That male ego of yours is going to get you into deep trouble one day, Jed. It will destroy your relationships with any women in your life and leave you alone with only your pride.

[dave]

...This despite there being no definitive day of Jesus resurrection...and No Commandment from God or Jesus to keep the resurrection.

The Scriptures are pretty clear...Sunday. I think it could be argued that there is a commandment from Christ to "keep the resurrection" if you are alluding to Sunday worship. "...do this as a commemoration of me..." or "...do this in remembrance of me..." depending on what version you read. As Christ rose on a Sunday, the Apostles chose Sunday to keep this commemoration. He also gave His Apostles Authority to make that decision for His Church (read the entire book of Acts and see if you can count how many times the Church is mentioned and see if you find any examples of the Apostles making decisions with authority).


...figure it's okay to follow a pagan day..(sunday)

Just because pagans utilized something doesn't make it unholy. Don't get into the habit of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Look at something objectively...it this action inherently sinful, or does it have merit? Whether pagans ALSO did these things is irrelevant for the most part in my opinion. Pagans ALSO breathed air, and I don't believe there is anyone who thinks that, therefore, breathing is bad.


...which the pope made "holy" by his "divine authority" in the fourth century,

Not the Pope, and not in the 4th century...but Christ when He rose. If you could provide the actual reference (from the Catholic source that records such a thing) for this, maybe it would help clear things up. And you may as well chuck the “4th century” bit. Writings in the 1st Century clearly show Sunday as the day of worship…both in Scripture and outside of
Scripture.



...and at the same time ignoring God's commandments...good luck with that...you got lots of company...over a billion followers...no wonder Jesus said "wide is the way that leads to destruction" .Matthew 7(13,14) and "depart from me you who practice lawlessness, I never knew you" Matthew 7 (23)..(lawlessness is failure to follow God's law or SIN...as per 1st John 3(4)

Which commandments are being ignored? When answering that question, contemplate Christ's fulfilling of the law and which commands Christ gave us specifically.

Something you may find interesting…and will quickly answer your claim about this 4th century nonsense:
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/sabbath-or-sunday

[Aquila]

This passage is worth a look in light of the topic. I think a good point is being made here.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
(Heb 3:7-12 KJV)


Remember the people didn't want to enter into the land when they heard the report about the giants? In contrast, Joshua and Caleb did want to enter in and they were the only two out of the twelve spies that were sent to look at the land and report back that had that attitude. So because the people refused to enter the land they wandered in the wilderness for about 38 years longer than they needed to. And in fact, an entire generation died in the wilderness without ever seeing the land, which is equated to the rest of God. I say an entire generation but actually there were two from that generation that did enter and it was Joshua and Caleb.

So God swore that they would not enter into his rest. But it is significant to note that they still had to keep the Sabbath every week for the rest of the wilderness wandering. 38+ years of Sabbath keeping. An entire generation died in the wilderness keeping the Sabbath without ever entering into God's rest.

Interesting that the Lord was looking at heart issues. Faith vs. unbelief. They were keeping the Sabbath but the Lord said 'they have not known my ways.' That means Sabbath keeping also can't be defined as knowing the Lord's ways.

A second point seen here:

Again he appoints a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
(Heb 4:7-10 ESV)


One day. 'Today.' So is there a day that isn't today?

Also consider that the Lord spoke through David - AFTER the kingdom was established under him and every enemy was defeated and the borders were made sure. He spoke of another day.

I think this tells us that the actual real estate isn't the rest of God, otherwise the rest they were enjoying would have been permanent and we would not even see the kinds of things in the Middle East that we see taking place today.

So we have to come to an understanding of 'the land' that is different from much of what we hear about from the pulpit and the news media.

[Jed]

There is a group of people who claim to be "Christian"...they claim to follow the Holy word of God in His Holy Bible. ..go to one of their many denominations on the day of the sun..sunday..they observe pagan man made days of dec 25th and easter which have NO Biblical commandment or authority...they do not follow the Ten Commandments, or at least not all them..they feel they can earn their salvation by following their own sanctified and commanded days, without God...These same people say the Commandments have been done away with, despite the fact God says in Jer 31(33) and Hebrews 10(16) He will write His commandments on our hearts and in our minds, and He will be our God and we will be His people...these counterfeit christians ignore this..and figure they are so lily white they do not have to keep God's/Jesus teachings...

Deleted due to unacceptable accusation




.....it may give them a power trip and emotional high here on earth when they are living, but obviously they do not believe in eternal life, as the Bible is very specific on that issue...We should pray for these poor deceived souls, that they will come out from under the bondage of sin (sin if transgression of the law) Apostle John says...Remember there is only one commanded Holy day each week, and that is the seventh day Sabbath, which God introduced at Creation.....

[HighBeams]

Until you have something relevant to the discussion to say then you should be ignored..you sound like you and your husband (you are a woman I presume) have lived hunder sharia law..maybe you should go back there!




You have no idea how funny that is, Jed. You have absolutely no idea about either me or my husband. There is no need for "sharia law" for us. We live as one in Christ. He respects me, as I respect him. He is the head of our household, and I'm his encourager, his counselor, his helper. Your studies on Biblical marriage could use some more study. A wife is a helpmeet, not a doormat!

I've respectfully asked you twice for clarifications of something you said. I wanted to make sure that you really had said what I thought you did. You did not respond to either one. From the answers you have given others, I'm guessing you're SDA. That does explain a lot about your legalistic views. It also explains your arrogance toward anyone whom you see as inferior to your status and to your knowledge level. I've shaken your dust from my feet, Jed. One who refuses to discuss an honest question is not teachable. I have better people to talk to and things to do.



Proverbs 29:23
A man’s pride will bring him low, But a humble spirit will obtain honor.

[Hansc]

There is a group of people who claim to be "Christian"...they claim to follow the Holy word of God in His Holy Bible. ..go to one of their many denominations on the day of the sun..sunday..they observe pagan man made days of dec 25th and easter which have NO Biblical commandment or authority...they do not follow the Ten Commandments, or at least not all them..they feel they can earn their salvation by following their own sanctified and commanded days, without God...These same people say the Commandments have been done away with, despite the fact God says in Jer 31(33) and Hebrews 10(16) He will write His commandments on our hearts and in our minds, and He will be our God and we will be His people...these counterfeit christians ignore this..and figure they are so lily white they do not have to keep God's/Jesus teachings...

Deleted due to unacceptable accusation


.....it may give them a power trip and emotional high here on earth when they are living, but obviously they do not believe in eternal life, as the Bible is very specific on that issue...We should pray for these poor deceived souls, that they will come out from under the bondage of sin (sin if transgression of the law) Apostle John says...Remember there is only one commanded Holy day each week, and that is the seventh day Sabbath, which God introduced at Creation.....

Jed, I deleted your vile and unacceptable accusations. Consider this your first warning.

[Jed]

Jed, I deleted your vile and unacceptable accusations. Consider this your first warning.

Hansc your and your cronies, counterfeits obviously cannot standthe truth and chose not to hear Jesus words from the gospels..that is your choice...never mind the "warnings" you know what you can do with your "warnings"..they are as dung...remember the words of Jesus you and your cronies will be hearing them a lot "depart from me I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness"....good luck following satan..you will need it!

[The Unaltered Gospel]

Hansc your and your cronies, counterfeits obviously cannot standthe truth and chose not to hear Jesus words from the gospels..that is your choice...never mind the "warnings" you know what you can do with your "warnings"..they are as dung...remember the words of Jesus you and your cronies will be hearing them a lot "depart from me I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness"....good luck following satan..you will need it!

Jed, You bring reproach to the body of Christ. May God have mercy on your soul.

[other one]

Hansc your and your cronies, counterfeits obviously cannot standthe truth and chose not to hear Jesus words from the gospels..that is your choice...never mind the "warnings" you know what you can do with your "warnings"..they are as dung...remember the words of Jesus you and your cronies will be hearing them a lot "depart from me I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness"....good luck following satan..you will need it!

I really hope you're just having a really bad hair day........ cause you're way way over the line of decency here

[dave]

Hansc your and your cronies, counterfeits obviously cannot standthe truth and chose not to hear Jesus words from the gospels..that is your choice...never mind the "warnings" you know what you can do with your "warnings"..they are as dung...remember the words of Jesus you and your cronies will be hearing them a lot "depart from me I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness"....good luck following satan..you will need it!

Jed, I really hate to get off topic, but I feel I'd be doing you a disservice otherwise.

I'm reminded of 1 Pet 3:14-16 "...But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. And do not fear their intimidation, and do not be troubled, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame. " (emphasis mine)

Are you so sure that it isn't YOU who is doing the slandering of the good behavior of Christians? Paul (Saul) himself was so sure about what he was doing at one time...God was merciful to him though and showed him his error. I pray God will open your eyes in the same way. In the meantime, reflect on what Peter writes to us in his 2nd letter:

2 Pet 3:14-16 "...Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." (emphasis mine)

What makes you so certain it is not YOU who is untaught, unstable....distorting the Scritures to your own destruction? We can all claim the Holy Spirit is guiding us...yet here we are going in different directions. So, by what Authority do you claim to be in the right?

Maybe this would be better in a different thread....

[Aquila]

It is sad that an entire generation perished in the wilderness while keeping the Sabbath. And they never missed one. This really does point out that there is no life in what they had to do. They kept it and still didn't enter into the rest of God because of unbelief. They didn't enter into the land.

It was only in the land that there could be a harvest. They never did sow or reap in the wilderness wanderings. They ate manna.

So the land is associated with the harvest and especially the firstfruits.

This is the way the resurrection was foreshadowed-

"Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you come into the land that I give you and reap its harvest, you shall bring the sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest, and he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, so that you may be accepted. On the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.
(Lev 23:10-11 ESV)

The firstfruit sheaf was waved before the Lord on the day AFTER the Passover Sabbath.

So the three days were the Passover, Sabbath, and Firstfruits.

The Sabbath was the tomb day. Jesus' body lay in the tomb all of that day.

The Firstfruits was the day of resurrection, Jesus being the first born, the first of the harvest of resurrection.

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
(1Co 15:20 KJV)

Then Pentecost was actually a counting from the morning AFTER the Sabbath:

And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
(Lev 23:15-16 KJV)


That means the coming of the Holy Spirit was based on the Firstfruits, not the Sabbath. The Promise of the Father is through the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ to everyone that believes in his wonderful name!

But again, the resurrection day isn't a day that ends. Christ's resurrection is eternal and brings in a harvest of of all those that believe in his name. It's going on right now. If Jesus is in your heart there is a resurrection going on inside, for as Jesus said- the kingdom is within you.

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
(1Co 15:20 KJV)

[HighBeams]

Jed, yes, I do know what we can do with our warnings. Your response is totally hateful and inappropriate, so I'm utilizing our remedy here.

You are hereby banned. I'm setting the timeframe at 3 weeks--at least until the other mods have a chance to discuss your highly inappropriate and vile accusations against us.

[HighBeams]

Aquila, I knew Jesus was called the Firstfruits, but I never really thought about the timing here. Thanks for your post. :D I love God's perfect timing in the details!

[Aquila]

Aquila, I knew Jesus was called the Firstfruits, but I never really thought about the timing here. Thanks for your post. :D I love God's perfect timing in the details!


Me too, it's interesting that if we count seven Sabbaths from that Passover Sabbath we come up with 49 days. One day short of the coming of the Holy Spirit. To me this is another evidence that Jesus wrapped up the Sabbath, meaning there is no life in keeping the day. We could keep it 7x7 and still fall short of the giving of the Holy Spirit.

The coming of the Spirit was 7x7 or 49 days from the waving of the firstfruit. Or 50 days from the last Sabbath.

Then going on to the next feast, at Pentecost we have this:

You shall bring from your dwelling places two loaves of bread to be waved, made of two tenths of an ephah. They shall be of fine flour, and they shall be baked with leaven, as firstfruits to the LORD.
(Lev 23:17 ESV)

Bread - a metaphor for the body of Christ. When the Holy Spirit came then we see the church which is his body. Bread made from the harvest.

Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
(Jas 1:18 ESV)

We are also called firstfruits because the resurrection life of Jesus has borned us again in our inner man.

Out of every dwelling place - this life does not belong to a special class within the body of Christ but dwells in every member of his body.

Two loaves - One in each hand. Fulness. All that can be held and lifted up and waved before the Lord.

Also interesting that it is bread made with leaven. We don't have to be perfect to be members of the body of Christ or to have his resurrection life in our hearts. The Lord is working on us and he that began a good work in us will complete it.

[Benjie]

That was quick. Lol!

[Hansc]

It is sad that an entire generation perished in the wilderness while keeping the Sabbath. And they never missed one. This really does point out that there is no life in what they had to do. They kept it and still didn't enter into the rest of God because of unbelief. They didn't enter into the land.

It was only in the land that there could be a harvest. They never did sow or reap in the wilderness wanderings. They ate manna.

So the land is associated with the harvest and especially the firstfruits.

This is the way the resurrection was foreshadowed-

"Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you come into the land that I give you and reap its harvest, you shall bring the sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest, and he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, so that you may be accepted. On the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.
(Lev 23:10-11 ESV)

The firstfruit sheaf was waved before the Lord on the day AFTER the Passover Sabbath.

So the three days were the Passover, Sabbath, and Firstfruits.

The Sabbath was the tomb day. Jesus' body lay in the tomb all of that day.

The Firstfruits was the day of resurrection, Jesus being the first born, the first of the harvest of resurrection.

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
(1Co 15:20 KJV)

Then Pentecost was actually a counting from the morning AFTER the Sabbath:

And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
(Lev 23:15-16 KJV)


That means the coming of the Holy Spirit was based on the Firstfruits, not the Sabbath. The Promise of the Father is through the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ to everyone that believes in his wonderful name!

But again, the resurrection day isn't a day that ends. Christ's resurrection is eternal and brings in a harvest of of all those that believe in his name. It's going on right now. If Jesus is in your heart there is a resurrection going on inside, for as Jesus said- the kingdom is within you.

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
(1Co 15:20 KJV)

Aquila, I thought your post was really good, it really made me think and offered some good insights. I think you really hit the nail on the head.

[Aquila]

Thanks Hans.

[Philthy]

Good answer, that is the reason why.
I think there is a little more to it than everyone simply agreed to it, but that is certainly a big part of the reason.

[Philthy]

OK, I was a little unclear in that post, let me try again.

I think there was a little more to it than "Jesus rose on Sunday therefore the Sabbath should be changed to Sunday", and everyone simply agreeing with it and practicing it, but the fact that Christ rose on Sunday is obviously a big part of the reason for the switch.

[Hansc]

Phil


than "Jesus rose on Sunday therefore the Sabbath should be changed to Sunday", and everyone simply agreeing with it

I don't recall agreeing with this. I don't agree with this. The Sabbath is still from Fri. evening to Sat. evening. That has not changed. Sunday is NOT the new Sabbath.

[Philthy]

Phil
I don't recall agreeing with this. I don't agree with this. The Sabbath is still from Fri. evening to Sat. evening. That has not changed. Sunday is NOT the new Sabbath.
Ah - OK. I think I twisted some of the discussion from the beginning of the thread when historyb said,
We can worship any day now, the day does not matter the intent of the heart does. and followed that up with the justication for 95% of christianity worshipping on Sunday because it is the day the Lord rose. I assumed that they were saying that our day of "rest" (ie Sabbath) is now on the Lord's day. Sorry! Do you think the rest of the Mosaic law (ie 10 Commandments) is also obsolete or just that 1 Commandment? Here's some excerpts from one Christian viewpoint on it:


Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:

The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.
http://old.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt1art3.shtml

[Hansc]

Phil


Do you think the rest of the Mosaic law (ie 10 Commandments) is also obsolete or just that 1 Commandment

The Law is still the Law, but we are under grace and are told to follow Christ in spirit and love. The Law says not to kill, steal, lie, to honor your parents and so on. However, if we follow Christ in the spirit of love what God wants gets done automatically.

The point is:

Love never robbed the 7-Eleven.

Love never cussed out the traffic cop.

Love never stole the neighbor's cow

Love never ran off with the neighbor's wife.

Love never smacked one-eyed Jimmy at the O.K. Corral.

Follow after Christ, follow after the Spirit, follow after love.


for Christians its [Sunday] ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath

This approach essentially does the same thing the Adventists are doing just switching days. I am not so much into a ceremonial observance of a day, as a relationship with a person and worshipping that person.


The celebration of Sunday observes

For me, this misses the point. I do not celebrate Sunday, I celebrate Christ. It is not the ritual observance of a day, but rather a living relationship with a person. I understand that we get together on a regular basis for group worship, but the focus to easily becomes days and rituals and protocols and programs.

The point is to focus on Christ each day.

[Philthy]

Phil
The Law is still the Law, but we are under grace and are told to follow Christ in spirit and love. The Law says not to kill, steal, lie, to honor your parents and so on. However, if we follow Christ in the spirit of love what God wants gets done automatically.
The point is:
Love never robbed the 7-Eleven.Love never cussed out the traffic cop.Love never stole the neighbor's cowLove never ran off with the neighbor's wife.Love never smacked one-eyed Jimmy at the O.K. Corral.Follow after Christ, follow after the Spirit, follow after love.
All good stuff of course, but you didn't quite answer the question..does "love" honor a day of rest to the Lord? I try not to be too rigid in my approach to living out my faith, but I think the 10 Commandments were a "line in the sand" so to speak of the bare minimum of what it means to "love god and love your neighbor". If you cross any of those lines, you don't fulfill the law of love that Christ commands.


This approach essentially does the same thing the Adventists are doing just switching days. I am not so much into a ceremonial observance of a day, as a relationship with a person and worshipping that person.
I totally get that, but at the same time I recognize that I don't make the rules - God does, and the Sabbath was one of them. It may be that you focus more on your personal relationship so much that you miss the community aspect of picking a day for the entire body to worship God. God is always focused on the entirety of humanity while we tend to focus on our selves and God - which is important - but should not be done to the exclusion of others. There is an inherent value to communal worship (cf Heb 10:24-25) and picking a day for all of us to know and recognize as that day makes a lot of sense.


For me, this misses the point. I do not celebrate Sunday, I celebrate Christ. It is not the ritual observance of a day, but rather a living relationship with a person.
I hear ya, but those comments can't be properly understood outside of the context of a Catholic author - it's not merely a "ritual observance" it is the celebration of Mass, which for a properly practicing Catholic is to have a very personal encounter with the risen Christ - body, blood, soul and divinity - in the celebration of the Eucharist. I'm not lookin' to go off on a tangent re: the Lord's Supper, I'm just trying to say what it means - or should mean - from a Catholic perspective; it's meant to be taken for granted - there is a ritual, but it's not a mere ritual observance. We confess our sins, are bathed in his Word and then encounter Him in the Eucharist. It is both intensely personal and communal - at least it is meant to be!
I understand that we get together on a regular basis for group worship, but the focus too easily becomes days and rituals and protocols and programs.
Absolutely, and you don't have to tell me, I know the sorry state of many practicing Catholics in this respect. Of course it's very easy to focus on days, rituals, etc etc - just like it's easy to focus too much on great music, fellowship and a good sermon - but that doesn't make them bad or even a bad idea. They are all meant to draw oneself deeper into that encounter with Christ - to take us out of our routine. But if we are not careful they can become mere habit, and an excuse for not truly worshipping. It's also easy to get so focused on what "I" do that we become isolated in our worship - that isn't good either.


The point is to focus on Christ each day. Amen, brother. And the point is also to help others do the same...God is always about community - in fact He is one! Every gift we receive from Him is meant for everyone else as much as it is for us as individuals.

[Unclaimed Treasure]

Wasn't it Augustine who said, "Love God. Then do as you will"?

People get so hot and bothered at that statement because they hear it and think it is a license to sin. In actuality, it is not. As Hans pointed out when we love God, our will becomes His will and so doing what we will we do His will.

[Philthy]

Wasn't it Augustine who said, "Love God. Then do as you will"?
I'm not sure. The most famous quote of St Augustine that I know is, to paraphrase, "You have made us unto yourself, oh Lord and our hearts are restless until they rest in you" He was a convert to the faith from atheism, a gifted theologian, speaker and Catholic Bishop of the 4th century.

As Hans pointed out when we love God, our will becomes His will and so doing what we will we do His will.
Well, yea, I guess that's good to know, but it's not the most practical statement. For most of us His will simply isn't our will much of the time - we are fallen. And sometimes we get confused what His will is and isn't. It's no different today than it was when Paul issued his own lists of behaviors that indicate one is not doing God's will (1Cor6, Eph 5 Gal 5). Having a list of do's and don'ts remains a useful tool in a manner that "Love God and you won't sin" doesn't quite capture despite it's truth.

[other one]

[COLOR="#000080"]All good stuff of course, but you didn't quite answer the question..does "love" honor a day of rest to the Lord?

Since Jesus admitted to working on the Sabbath, I would say "NO" it doesn't. It honors a complete life "to" the Lord.

[dave]

Since Jesus admitted to working on the Sabbath, I would say "NO" it doesn't. It honors a complete life "to" the Lord.

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but I think I agree with you on this...we can give our whole lives to the Lord by loving Him. And so in that love, when also give to Him His Holy Day by communing and worshipping Him as a community...going to Church on the day that Christ and the Apostles showed to us...on Sunday. Christ fulfilled the Law, but did not abolish it (Matt 5:17), and now the day we give to God is not the Sabbath, but the Lord's Day...Sunday. So we still obey the First Commandment, only in the fulfillment of it (the Lord's Day, not the Sabbath).

[Philthy]

Since Jesus admitted to working on the Sabbath, I would say "NO" it doesn't. It honors a complete life "to" the Lord.
Not a bad thought, but what "work" did Jesus admit to doing on the Sabbath?? I think that he (or his disciples) were accused of doing a "work" on the Sabbath but only according to the man-made standards that the Pharisees and Saduccees had created. We have to remember that Jesus fulfilled the Law perfectly, and "Keep Holy the Sabbath Day" was part of that and he did things differently on Sabbath days than on non-Sabbath days, in addition to devoting his life to the Lord. I'm kinda wondering what the point of the Sabbath being part of the OT law was really...why was it needed then and what did it point to now?

[Unclaimed Treasure]

Why is the Sabbath necessary? Well one reason is to point us to the ultimate "Sabbath Rest" that awaits us in heaven...which will not be a time of inactivity. But the other reason is we are finite human beings and we will work ourselves and/or others to the death if we do not have a command to slow down! If you look at our commercial world in this country, a restaurant chain like Chik-Filet is penalized because they refuse to be open on Sunday. Wal-Mart is not only open seven days a week but 24 hours a day. For all practical purposes, we no longer have a Sabbath on either Saturday or Sunday. Sure, we might go to church on one of those days, but what else do we do on that day? Go out to eat? Go shopping? Do the laundry? Do homework? Even if we are not working ourselves, such as in going out to eat, we are requiring someone else to work. Just as studies are showing that as a nation, we no longer get enough sleep, I think some studies are also showing that our 24/7 culture is doing a negative number on our collective health.

[Philthy]

I'm doing a little research on the subject and I came across this wonderful document from the late John Paul 11 in his Apostolic letter: Dies Domini, which I believe translates as "The Lord's Day"
The breadth of knowledge - biblical, historical, theological, cultural - is impressive to say the least. This is not for everyone, and certainly not something to rush through, but if you have the time and interest it's worth checking out:

http://www.scborromeo.org/docs/dies_domini.pdf#xml=http://scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/mysite.txt?q=Sabbath&sufs=0&cat=2&order=r&id=6031189b24d97072&cmd=xml

[other one]

Not a bad thought, but what "work" did Jesus admit to doing on the Sabbath?? I think that he (or his disciples) were accused of doing a "work" on the Sabbath but only according to the man-made standards that the Pharisees and Saduccees had created. We have to remember that Jesus fulfilled the Law perfectly, and "Keep Holy the Sabbath Day" was part of that and he did things differently on Sabbath days than on non-Sabbath days, in addition to devoting his life to the Lord. I'm kinda wondering what the point of the Sabbath being part of the OT law was really...why was it needed then and what did it point to now?


John 5:15-18
15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. 16 And for this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17 But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working ." 18 For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
NASB

the Jews were accusing him of working on the sabbath by healing people. It's odd that he didn't correct them in thier accusation, but freely admitted that not only was he working, but the Father had been working too.
When you look at the commandment within the ten, people were not supposed to do any work whatsoever on the seventh day. all the chruch attendance is tradition even from the Jews.
Well while I do enjoy attending church on sundays, I don't consider it a rest. And I don't love the Lord any more on Sunday than any other day of the week. Actually since we retired, Sundays are about the most stressful day of the week.... the rest of the time I just do what I want....... and more and more it's becoming like the sabbath...... I rest. LoL

[Philthy]

the Jews were accusing him of working on the sabbath by healing people. It's odd that he didn't correct them in thier accusation, but freely admitted that not only was he working, but the Father had been working too. Odd? I don't think so, I think it's classic. He answers their question in a way that was meant not only to reveal the truth of the Sabbath to them but, as always, to confirm who He is and who's will He has come to do.

all the chruch attendance is tradition even from the Jews. I'm not sure what your point is...

Well while I do enjoy attending church on sundays, I don't consider it a rest. Again, not sure what your point is.
And I don't love the Lord any more on Sunday than any other day of the week. Of course not. Neither the OT Sabbath nor Sunday worship suggest you should love God more on Sat/Sun. What's your point in saying that?
Actually since we retired, Sundays are about the most stressful day of the week.... the rest of the time I just do what I want....... and more and more it's becoming like the sabbath...... I rest. LoL I also have some stressful Sundays - it's not right and I know it. I allow them to be that way...