Sola Scriptura test of all Doctrine

[Obiectivum]

Hi Titus

I could use scripture to demonstrate to you the truth of the doctrine of eternal security. Someone else can also use scripture to show you can lose your salvation.

And they would BOTH be 100% sincere God fearing men, both believing that they are led to their understanding by the ONE and only Holy Spirit. But because their interpretations are diametrically opposite to each other, one of them is 100% wrong.

Correct?

It is a subject over which Christians are often sharply divided and discussions often become heated. My advice would be for you to explore the scriptures and pray for God's leading rather than man's convincing.

Let's look at what you're proposing objectively. Are you proposing that, for this issue and for every other issue; a sincere Christian is supposed to explore the scriptures and pray for God's leading before arriving at a conclusion that he is personally convicted of, while knowing full well that other well meaning and sincere Christian believes something totally opposite?

So it doesn't matter as long as the individual is personally convinced (although he may be 100% wrong)?

[Obiectivum]

Question: "What is sola scriptura?"

Answer: The phrase sola scriptura is from the Latin: sola having the idea of “alone,” “ground,” “base,” and the word scriptura meaning “writings”—referring to the Scriptures. Sola scriptura means that Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian. .

Hi historyb,

I understand what you believe SS is. As the article above states "Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian". I take that to mean that the bible alone is able to teach the Christian the TRUTHS about God. But this does not seem to be happening when we see sincere God fearing Christians disagreeing on what the bible teaches.

Do you see the problem?

Let's look at this objectively without bringing in anything the Catholics do. SS should be able to stand on it's on, it should not need the fact that you think Catholicism is wrong to justify the truth of this praxis.

For the purpose of this discourse, let's even state that the Catholics are wrong in their doctrines. Would that automatically mean that SS is right? No, it does not. If SS is true, then it must be shown to be true on its own accord.

From reading all the verses in support of the praxis, it can look like that is exactly what the bible is claiming; however, the true test must be that it accomplishes what it claims it can accomplish. - i.e. Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian; but not just individual Christians reaching different subjective conclusions, but as a whole body of Christ.

I don't see it working. Do you?

[Titus]

What it means O, is ultimately, you are responsible for what you believe. You have scipture and the Holy Spirit to lead you. If you follow false doctrine, it is on you. God will not likely accept the excuse that you were following accepted teaching.

[Obiectivum]

So there're consequences for having wrong teaching. What happens if you end up adopting wrong doctrine because you sincerely got it wrong when you read scripture believing that you were led by the Holy Spirit?

It's not the individual doctrine that is the issue here, it's the paradigm adopted. SS guarantees that, in every case, not just the OSAS case, that someone is 100% wrong, but both are 100% sincere and 100% convinced that they are right. Do you not see that?

"You have scripture and the Holy Spirit to lead you" - can you not see that both sides believe that they have scripture and the Holy Spirit on their side??

[Obiectivum]

Guys/Gals

I cannot believe that you cannot see that there is something obviously wrong with saying that one will be led to all truth if they ".. have scipture and the Holy Spirit to lead you" - Don't you believe that there are sincere well meaning and well educated people who are diametrically opposed to each other on crucial doctrines?

I think that the main reason why a lot of sincere Christians are blinded by this fact is because i) there is no other alternative, SS must be right, after all, the bible is THE word of GOD! Sir Arthur Conan Doyle had an interesting maxim on this - "when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Is it really so hard to believe that Jesus left us with a bunch of guys to follow, promising that He would guide them and be with them till the end of time? When Jesus died on the cross, He said "It is finished" but not a stitch of the bible was even written yet. He left us with men to follow. You believed it once when they canonized the New Testament, what's so hard to believe that He continues to lead them to this day like He promised He would? If He wanted us to follow the bible, why didn't He write the bible or commission he apostles to start writing while He was still around?
ii) Culturally Protestant. It cannot be helped if you grew up knowing only this. Everyone follows men, if it's not the Apostles, it's Luther, Calvin, Zwingli or Billy Graham and Harold Camping et al.

Challenge your positions. When you realise that SS is not what it's claimed to be and cannot accomplish what it is supposed to accomplish, you'll see that the bible is made useless by this praxis. As Titus said, "I could use scripture to demonstrate to you the truth of the doctrine of eternal security. Someone else can also use scripture to show you can lose your salvation." Thereby nullifying the word of God in one fell swoop.

[Aquila]

Obi said:

Is it really so hard to believe that Jesus left us with a bunch of guys to follow, promising that He would guide them and be with them till the end of time?

That's it in a nutshell. You are saying we have to believe in the RCC clergy.

I have always been astonished that among the 7 sacraments of the RCC you will find their clergy, but they do not count the Holy Scripture as a sacrament.

This is because they teach that the promise of the Holy Spirit as spoken by Jesus in John 14-17 is given exclusively to the people in the room that he originally spoke to and their successors. Absurd and evil, their doctrine is.

So all you believers out there who read the Bible, just remember, they say it's not for you. It's for their clergy and they will mediate for you and teach you properly so that you don't fall into error.

You have to decide - is 'all truth' the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ or the RCC clergy?

[historyb]

Hi historyb,

I understand what you believe SS is. As the article above states "Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian". I take that to mean that the bible alone is able to teach the Christian the TRUTHS about God. But this does not seem to be happening when we see sincere God fearing Christians disagreeing on what the bible teaches.

Than your take is wrong. Therein lies the problem just because you take it to mean that does not mean that is the real meaning. What you are thinking of is Solo Scriptura in Sola Scriptura it does not mean one can not use something else (The Lutherans have the Augsburg Catechism, some Reformed go by the Westminster Confession, The Southern Baptist have their own Confession ) what it means is it must line up with the authoritative word of God and if it's not then it is thrown out.

Do you see the problem?

Nope

Let's look at this objectively without bringing in anything the Catholics do. SS should be able to stand on it's on, it should not need the fact that you think Catholicism is wrong to justify the truth of this praxis.

Where did I say that. Right now I am Catholic but I was a Protestant at one time

For the purpose of this discourse, let's even state that the Catholics are wrong in their doctrines. Would that automatically mean that SS is right? No, it does not. If SS is true, then it must be shown to be true on its own accord.

I disagree here if Catholicism is wrong than either the Protestants or Orthodox are right

From reading all the verses in support of the praxis, it can look like that is exactly what the bible is claiming; however, the true test must be that it accomplishes what it claims it can accomplish. - i.e. Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian; but not just individual Christians reaching different subjective conclusions, but as a whole body of Christ.

No that is your test, not the true test. The praxis actually does accomplish what it set out to do

I don't see it working. Do you?

At first when I had the same flawed ideas as you but after I learned about it I see it working

[Titus]

Of course I see. What do you see? What is your answer for "rightly dividing the word of truth"? How do YOU decide what to believe?

So there're consequences for having wrong teaching. What happens if you end up adopting wrong doctrine because you sincerely got it wrong when you read scripture believing that you were led by the Holy Spirit?

It's not the individual doctrine that is the issue here, it's the paradigm adopted. SS guarantees that, in every case, not just the OSAS case, that someone is 100% wrong, but both are 100% sincere and 100% convinced that they are right. Do you not see that?

"You have scripture and the Holy Spirit to lead you" - can you not see that both sides believe that they have scripture and the Holy Spirit on their side??

[Titus]

O, what it comes down to is no one has it all 100% correct. So follow God to where He wants you to serve, and study to show yourself approved.

[historyb]

That's it in a nutshell. You are saying we have to believe in the RCC clergy.

I have always been astonished that among the 7 sacraments of the RCC you will find their clergy, but they do not count the Holy Scripture as a sacrament.

This is because they teach that the promise of the Holy Spirit as spoken by Jesus in John 14-17 is given exclusively to the people in the room that he originally spoke to and their successors. Absurd and evil, their doctrine is.

So all you believers out there who read the Bible, just remember, they say it's not for you. It's for their clergy and they will mediate for you and teach you properly so that you don't fall into error.

You have to decide - is 'all truth' the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ or the RCC clergy?

You are very wrong and bearing false witness. The Bible is not a scarment because the Lord did give the Bible as we have it today, your going into Bible worship. Not only does the Catholic Church encourge reading the Bible it is read every Sunday and Weekdays, put together if Catholics go to Mass on Sundays they get the whole Bible in three years and if Catholics go on weekdays they hear the Bible in a year. Plus there are readings that gets printed in the Buletins that one can use thier own Bible to read.

So has does Faith come? Not by reading but by hearing. You will never find in the Bible that we must read it, but you will find that we must hear the Gospel. The command was not to read, but to go out and preach to the Nations the good news of Christ.

You can read here what Pope Benedict said about the importance of the Bible:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/be..._Of_The_Church

and from the CCC:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a3.htm#brief

In the future please rather then bear false witness just ask.