Christian Homosexuality

[Benjie]

Well until it is proved otherwise there is no such "being" that is gay. Having an attraction to the same sex is perverted just like any other sin. We are all born in sin.

Would you consider being attracted to the opposite sex perverted?

[HisDaughter]

Would you consider being attracted to the opposite sex perverted?

No I don't consider being attracted to the opposite sex perverted.

[Titus]

Sounds good. Could be interesting.

One day, I would like to attempt a civil discussion about ES with you. Again, not to argue, but I find that debate causes me to dig deeper into the word - so it's not to prove you wrong, but more to find out what I truly believe. I'm not a five point Arminian, just as I don't think you are a five point Calvinist. There are things, even within the doctrine that we agree with, where there is some dissonance.

And yes, every single one of us will be shocked when we reach heaven. No doubt about that!

[Titus]

No, it's clear, if we believe God that it is sin;plain and simple. I do believe that each of us has certain dispositions toward certain sins, because some people seem to be prone to lust, some to substance abuse, some to pride, etc.

Is a person born gay? This is why I used the example of my co-worker. There is no gene that a person is born gay no difference in blood only, nothing. Now this might be a different thread altogether.

So a "being" is only gay based on a perverted attraction. I might get slammed for this but, I haven't found any scientific proof.

[Benjie]

No I don't consider being attracted to the opposite sex perverted.

Lust is a sin and it includes attraction to the opposite sex, therefore, it is perverted -- according to your definition.

It's simply because it's homosexuality, isn't it? That's where I was too until I looked into it a bit deeper. When we just wave our hand and call it all perversion without actually putting thought to it, we do them and Christ a disservice - because He loves them enough to die for them, we should love them as well. Calling them perverts isn't loving.

[Benjie]

No, it's clear, if we believe God that it is sin;plain and simple. I do believe that each of us has certain dispositions toward certain sins, because some people seem to be prone to lust, some to substance abuse, some to pride, etc.

And this is really the point with homosexuality. Is an alcoholic a sinner simply because he has an addiction? Is a kleptomaniac a sinner because he feels a compulsion to steal? Is a man a sinner because he has yearnings for women?

If the answer to the questions above is - no, not until he acts on the desire, then are homosexuals really sinners if they don't act on the desire?

[RoyS]

And this is really the point with homosexuality. Is an alcoholic a sinner simply because he has an addiction? Is a kleptomaniac a sinner because he feels a compulsion to steal? Is a man a sinner because he has yearnings for women?

If the answer to the questions above is - no, not until he acts on the desire, then are homosexuals really sinners if they don't act on the desire?

Sinning is what makes someone a sinner. Christ said, "...whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.". THAT is sinning. Make of it what you will.

[Titus]

And this is really the point with homosexuality. Is an alcoholic a sinner simply because he has an addiction? Is a kleptomaniac a sinner because he feels a compulsion to steal? Is a man a sinner because he has yearnings for women?If the answer to the questions above is - no, not until he acts on the desire, then are homosexuals really sinners if they don't act on the desire?

Depends on the nature of the desire. If it is desire to the point of lust then yes it is a sin. If it is a predisposition to a particular type of sin, but it does not adversely affect the thought life, or one does not allow that predisposition to manifest itself in either lustful thoughts or fantasies or sinful acts, then no, it's not a sin.

[HighBeams]

Sinning is what makes someone a sinner. Christ said, "...whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.". THAT is sinning. Make of it what you will.

I know that the Bible verse seems to be harsh, but His words need a little more explanation here. When Jesus used the phrase, "looks on a woman to lust after her", He was not talking about just a glance, nor even perhaps a turning for a quick second look. What He was talking about was the pursuing of the thought, dwelling on the woman, and feeding the scenario. Thoughts in and of themselves are not sinning. But the dwelling and feeding of the thought of the wrong action is the sin.

IMHO, the sin of homosexuality lies in the intent and action, just as the sin of anything lies in the intent and action. We all have certain sins that we fall into more easily than other sins. Those are usually called "besetting sins". We are born with this predisposition, but we choose to pursue the thought and take action or not. God expects us, as believers, to acknowledge our sins (i.e., call a spade a spade and admit it is wrong in His eyes), and to attempt to rein in the sinful tendencies. So the homosexual believer, like any other believer, needs to acknowledge that God has said the action is sin in His eyes and to make the attempt to refuse to act on that sin. This sin, like all other besetting sins, takes a lifetime of battle and is not won totally in this life. We've all got to work at not acting on our besetting sins.

[dave]

I know that the Bible verse seems to be harsh, but His words need a little more explanation here. When Jesus used the phrase, "looks on a woman to lust after her", He was not talking about just a glance, nor even perhaps a turning for a quick second look. What He was talking about was the pursuing of the thought, dwelling on the woman, and feeding the scenario. Thoughts in and of themselves are not sinning. But the dwelling and feeding of the thought of the wrong action is the sin.

IMHO, the sin of homosexuality lies in the intent and action, just as the sin of anything lies in the intent and action. We all have certain sins that we fall into more easily than other sins. Those are usually called "besetting sins". We are born with this predisposition, but we choose to pursue the thought and take action or not. God expects us, as believers, to acknowledge our sins (i.e., call a spade a spade and admit it is wrong in His eyes), and to attempt to rein in the sinful tendencies. So the homosexual believer, like any other believer, needs to acknowledge that God has said the action is sin in His eyes and to make the attempt to refuse to act on that sin. This sin, like all other besetting sins, takes a lifetime of battle and is not won totally in this life. We've all got to work at not acting on our besetting sins.

Yes, I agree with this.

I think we get into a trouble spot once we decided to try and relay this information to the person who thinks "I deserve to be happy and being with [a same-sex-partner] is what makes me happy". There's also a fair bit of "don't judge me" that comes up. Maybe this is where believers and non-believers weed themselves out...because if you start to reference the Scriptures, some will get rather upset about (in a particular instance with me, for example) "how dare you force your beliefs on me?" Is there a place where we draw the line...between "I love you and want to be grow closer to God" and "you have the freedom to choose what you wish...just beware the consequences..."?