Now that Barack Obama is the official Democrat nominee his past words are coming under more scrutiny. In a June 2007 speech Obama said “Whatever we once were, we’re no longer a Christian nation. At least not just. We are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, and a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation and a nation of nonbelievers”
How much longer will God protect and bless this nation if we not only don’t act like a Christian nation, but also openly proclaim we are not a Christian nation? Could this be why America is not mentioned in prophecy as a factor in world events during the end times?
Not a Christian nation? Here’s a sampling of quotes from just a few of the nation’s early leaders:
First Supreme Court Justice John Jay (served from 1789 to 1795)
“Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the priveledge and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”
Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story (served from 1812 to 1845)
“I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”
Supreme Court Justice David Brewer (server from 1890 to 1910)
“This is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation … We find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth … These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.“
John Quincy Adams (6th President of the United States)
“The greatest glory of the American Revolution was this: It connected in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.”
His comments are accurate. Our nation The United States of America encompasses many different religious beliefs other than Christianity.
His comments are accurate in that they describe the current condition of America. But he thinks this is a good thing if you listen to his whole speech. America was founded as a Christian nation. The writings of the founding fathers proves their intent.
This speech is representative of an increasing social inertia, moving the U.S. from a Christian nation to an anti-Christian nation. We have crossed the line of indifference, the point of no return.
Unfortunately, I believe you're right!
Well, the video posted was only 17 seconds long and what I heard was accurate.
I wasn't sure if the following was your words or addtional excepts from his speech:
How much longer will God protect and bless this nation if we not only don’t act like a Christian nation, but also openly proclaim we are not a Christian nation? Could this be why America is not mentioned in prophecy as a factor in world events during the end times?
My response to that is 'acting like a Christian nation' doesn't make us a Christian nation nor does that fact that over history others have declared this a Christian nation. It is God who appoints our rulers and leaders for His purposes.
The comment was mine. If it had been his I would have put it in quotes. Of course simply "acting" like a Christian nation doesn't make us one. You're missing the whole point I believe. You've heard the phrase "Act your age"? If you're 25, don't act like you're 10. Act like you're 25. If we're a Christian nation then we should act like one. This nation was founded by Christian men with the intention of being a Christian nation. Read the Mayflower Compact.
As for Romans 13:1-7, that would take an in depth post to discuss fully but as with all scripture you have to read it in context of what came before and after, the audience Paul was speaking, etc. If you take only those verses then that would mean we were wrong to fight the Revolutionary War, the US was wrong to overthrow Hitler and so on. In other words, a hyper Calvinist view of the world.
20yrs from now, speech from a Christian perspective will be viewed as speech from a racisit perspective is viewed today, perhaps sooner.
Things unimaginable can come about quickly. There were only 17yrs between the last jewish german soldiers receiving the highest military honors for service in ww1 and the first of those same men being exterminated.
Nothing unites a people like a common enemy, and as the old quote goes,
"I have seen the enemy, and they are us."
Thank you for the clarification that those words not in quotes were yours. Perhaps I am missing your point and perhaps likewise.
To posts a snippet of of a speech is not allowing for the full context of that speech.
Again, I do not believe that based on that snippet we can conclude that Obama was not proclaimng this to be a nation founded on Christian principles. I did find the complete speech on YouTube, yet Obama is merely stating that The USA consists or more than just Christains in those few words in the snippet of the speech (and that is where context is important as well).
As far as Romans 13:1-7 that was not my full premise God has been putting leaders in places of authority since the OT (example David over Jonathon).
As to how Romans 13:1-7 would make it 'wrong' to have gained our Freedom, and overthrown Hitler I would say it supports it to some extent as verse one states:
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
Now, as you said that could make for another topic with many corresponding verses. The highest authority is from God and we are not to obey when it goes against what God has said.
I'm not here to argue, but in good conscience cannot make a case nor bare false witness from only a snippet of an entire speech. I am called to be discerning and guard my heart.
Jeff's characterization of Obama's speech was consistant with half of everything I've heard Obama say. The other half contradicts the first half. It really depends on who he's speaking to and when. I'm not inclined to give such a person any benefit of the doubt.
I don't believe that even those who intend to vote for him believe what he says, what they do believe is that he will "change" who gets to keep the money we earn.
In the end Republicans and Democrats want the same thing. As a Republican, I just want to keep what I earn. As Democrats, they just want to keep what I earn.
America was formed under Christian values because at the time with the group of individuals who founded our nation, religious diversity was almost non-existent. There were not Muslim or Hindu leaders founding our country, so of course our nation was formed under Christian values. However, our fore-fathers were wise enough to give us freedom of religion, a freedom that allowed us to participate in our own forms of worship to any God of our choosing. I am sure they did not anticipate the vast tapestry of religions that would one day represent the citizens of our nation, but the freedom was extended to all from the very beginning and is today as well. Obama's statements are completely accurate. Christians do not have a monopoly on religion and we do not have a monopoly on the United States of America. God has blessed this nation exuberantly and will continue to bless His people. However, we do not further His kingdom by spreading the message that this is a Christian nation and those that say otherwise are profane. This is the most counter-productive message we can send! Only through the acceptance of Christianity will anyone ever come to Christ. You will never convert any individual of another faith to yours by running theirs down or saying in the public square that your religion is the only true religion. As Christians we must accept the vast differences of those around us and show them the love of Christ. For far too long we have been fighting the world when we are called to love. This does not mean to become a part of the world, for we have always been called to be separate. It merely means we must accept all people of any faith or we will never be accepted. The reason Christians are becoming a people known for hate more than love and anger more than kindness and violence more than peace is because we have been zealously waging war on any point of view we do not agree with, falling into the trap of being dismissed as irrational fanatics. We can not change this world if they dismiss us. Worst of all, politically we have become associated with a party that promotes war, practices discrimination and ignores the poor. If ever there were elitists in our politics, they dwell in the Christian right. Christians vote Republican because we feel we are standing up for the right of unborn children, fighting the sin of homosexuality, and being a part of a party who claims to have our Christian faith in mind. Would Christ be a part of their political system? Jesus was a pacifist; he would not support their war. Jesus loved every person he met and associated with the outcasts and scum of the earth; he would not discriminate against a Muslim of homosexual. One of his most important messages preached the need of caring for the sick and homeless, while our Republican leadership gives tax breaks to massive corporations and widen the gap between the working poor and the middle class. Most of you will not be swayed by what I am saying and I am not taking my time to deliver this because I think you will. I am speaking my mind as a Christian and as a lover of Christ. Because of my love I will be voting for this man and I do stand by his statement that this is no longer just a Christian nation. It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. How am I to reach the lost if I am surrounded by those are found? I accept the diversity of this nation and believe that until Christians begin to act like Christ, we will become the black sheep of this world and allow it to slip further and further into chaos.
No matter how you justify Obama's statement about America being no longer a Christian Nation" and our freedom of Religion, the fact remains that when our forefathers wrote the First Amendment they meant only European Religions and never would have limited this Amendment the way it reads today if they had imagined that one day this Country would have been invaded by strange people of the third world with mores and beliefs inconsistent with out Christian values.
Moreover,if all of the dissenters in this forum and the other millions of dispersed within our society read the Amendment, they could see that, that, in fact, there is no such think is freedom of Religion in the United States of America.
The article don't even say the much quoted " Separation of "Church" and "State". What the Amendment says is that "Congress" shall not establish a National Religion and impose it on the States.
There is a Separation, but this separation is between "Congress and Religion" and not between "Church and "State".
Despite what Obama claims ,there is nothing in the Constitution which would prohibit a State or all of the States to make Christianity the Official Religion of their States. (Not prohibited under Amendment 10 of the Constitution)
To save ourselves from the millions of Obamas and to stop the downfall of our Great Nation,discovered by Christian Catholics, and built by European Christians, it's about time that the States exercise their States Rights and challenge Congress.
We cannot allow Obama ,the Muslim, to make this Country look like the Country and Continent of his African father and like the rest of the non-White world.
America must remain Christian. Immigration of non-Christians must stop and those people privileged to being allowed to be part of this society will have to respect our Christian/European mores and not the other way around.
In the absence of the above, this Country will disintegrate very rapidly into opposing sects and tribes.
This is not certainly what our founding fathers had in mind.
USA AXIS OF EVIL:
THE UNITES STATES CONGRESS
THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT
ALL THE FEDERAL COURTS.
Everything is unfolding exactly as it was authored before the foundation of the world. Piques one's curiosity, doesn't it?
You all need to do your research because some of you are very wrong about our founding fathers. Thomas Jefferson, in fact, stated to the French, "I want to make it perfectly clear, this nation was not founded on christianity, it is a secular nation above all." So cut your bs off, if you think this nation was founded on christian doctrine you are dead wrong.
Garrett, believe me, I have done plenty of research on this issue. Your response demonstrates the failure of our education system. All you have to do is read the writings of our Founding fathers to know that this nation was founded on Christian principles.
Thomas Jefferson wrote "“God who gave us life gave us liberty, and can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God?”
“reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle…Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports" – George Washington, President of the Constitutional Convention
“Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. A patriot must be a religious man.” – John Adams
“religion is the basis and Foundation of Government” and “the belief in a God All Powerful, wise and good…. is essential to the moral order of the World and the happiness of men.” – James Madison
“Our country should be preserved from the dreadful evil of becoming enemies of the religion of the Gospel, which I have no doubt, but would be the introduction of the dissolution of government and the bonds of civil society.” – Elias Boudinot, President of the Continental Congress
The exact same Congress that approved the First Amendment approved the following resolution less than 24 hours later: “Resolved, that a joint committee of both Houses be directed to wait upon the President of the United States, to request that he would recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the many signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceable to establish a Constitution of government for their safety and happiness.”
Here's some suggested reading that will bring you up to speed on the history they neglected to teach you in the public schools.
I am sorry Jeff White I assumed everyone was ignorant so I spoke too freely to save time. First, I never went to public schools, Catholic Schooling k-8 and high school; I do now go to a public college, however. Anyway, yes I do know some of the founding fathers were extremely religious, however, Thomas Jefferson was not. Thomas Jefferson was a firm believer in separarion of church and state writing the Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom, which is as blunt as the times aloud for getting religion out of government. Thomas Jefferson is the most important founding father, I believe, and the most brillian; he was a polymath. To have the government create anylaw on the basis of christianity goes directly against Thomas Jefferson. I wonder, sometimes, if some of you all would create Christianity as the state religion if you could; Thomas Jefferson would despise you for it. Now, onto the other deeply christian founding fathers: back in those times people were quite ignorant of other religions like Buddhism and Hindu and the less educated founding fathers(i.e. Washington), first, just assumed everyone was a Christian in the USA, so he did not put much thought into the idea of offending other religions because the world was a lot bigger and the Muslims, Hindi, and Buddhists were another world away. However, if he lived in today's times where we have the privelige of being educated on other religions, I am completely positive he would not propose a Christian nation.
Do you see? Everyone was Christian back then , so only the remarkable geniuses like Thomas Jefferson could foresee the problems of using religion as a basis.
Do you think there might have been a reason for them not creating a state religion? Because even Christianity is so highly divided that bringing religion into government caused the pilgrims to come here in the first place.
And you all want to put Obama down for saying what he said, I am sorry for you; that reeks of ignorance and intolerance of other people's beliefs. THIS IS AMERICA, EVERYONE IS EQUAL; THE CHRISTIANS ARE NOT MORE EQUAL THAN THE MUSLIMS, BUDDHISTS, OR HINDU; so lets keep our religious beliefs where they belong: in our hearts and actions. This nation is for every religion.
Garrett, thanks for your follow-up. I was a little too harsh as well after I reread my response.
Jefferson obviously played a great role on the founding of our nation but whether he was the most important is certainly debatable. In my opinion he would be 2nd or 3rd behind Washington and possibly Madison. Jefferson was certainly not a strong Christian but I'm not sure even Jefferson himself knew what he believed. He made several conflicting statements over the years, several times talking about the importance of religion in public office and other times saying it had no place.
Jefferson was one of few that held this position. The vast majority believe Christianity held a strong role in government but they were in agreement that the federal government should not establish a national religion like England had at the time. This didn't stop them from declaring a national day of prayer and thanksgiving, something the Supreme Court would likely say is unconstitutional today, even though there is no religion being 'established'.
Also, the 1st amendment only guides the federal governments role. It says 'Congress shall make no law'. It does not restrict the individual states (see 10th amendment)
Jefferson's remark was about the goverment not the people (nation).
One would have to very selectively cut and paste a very few quotes in complete innorance of the context of the history to conclude that the United States of America was founded as anything other than a Christian nation.
My grandchildren listen to a popular stong that states, "what the fool believes he sees". I don't know you well enough to accuse you of foolishness. I am inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt and consider you simply ignorant of the subject; but it does seem to me that you are seeing something that is simply not there.
Well what do you all propose then? Every state be allowed to have a state religion? That would cause war. Have Christianity as the only legal religion? Myself, even as a christian, would start that a war against that. Of course most of you would have Intelligent Design taught nation wide in science classe; no war over it, but definitely hatred. I also want everyone to know that early Christianity in the first century were a communist people; everything that was one person's was everyone's. James Mayhew I am sure you will tell me I'm wrong on this, but I tell you that if you are ignorant of this, bite your tongue, because I have read much on this and it is true. I also want you to know James that I do know you well enough to call you a fool. I have read your words, and through it seen your lack of understanding of even Jesus. Tell me this: do you think if Jesus had a choice to be a Democrat or Republican, which would he pick. Do you think he would choose the party that advocates universal wealth or the one that says, "Share my wealth with others? Over my dead body." The one point Jesus would be conservative on is abortion, but I am pro-life too, so I can say nothing on that. However, no matter who has the power, abortion will never be illegal again so it is an issue that is null and void to choose your party over.
Good Morning Gentlemen:
Interesting debate but seriouly what about Obama's comments? Where will they lead others? How many will simply follow him without questioning his comments, beliefs, leadership and so forth? The numbers who are simply following him are staggering and it is (in my humble opinion) scarey to say the very least. Say anything here in America including that we are no longer a "Christian" nation and we'll embrace it. After all we are really only "stupid" sheep being lead to slaughter right? If the lead sheep (for example Obama) jumps off a cliff to his death will the rest of the sheep then follow to their death as well. As a farm girl from the midwest I can tell you for a certainty that YES they will blindly and happily follow the "leader" to their death. Sad but true. Following has become so much simplier than leading don't you think? Where have ALL the great men, the great women, the great leaders gone? This is the great deception…that everything is okay and allowed here because we have become a diverse nation but that simply is not the TRUTH. The truth is we have fallen a long, long way from where we began and God will only withhold his judgement against us for so long friends. Godless people and Godless nations NEVER stand against the ONE and ONLY true living God. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will not be mocked or cast out. That is well documented throughout history no matter your particular history reference. Garrett, I respectfully suggest you seriously re-consider "as a Christian" your stance regarding abortion never being illegal again. As Christ followers we MUST know/study the word of God, stand for truth, seek justice, fight for change, love deeply and serve others well. Allowing abortion is not true love. It is simply another deception to invoke compromise of any standards within our nation. Abortion has simply become birth control but God has a plan for purity and convenant marriage not sleeping around, making babies outside of His plan. The "majority" of resulting abortions stem from SIN so where does that get confronted and dealt with in our "Christian" nation these days? As the adult daughter of a suicidal, incest survivor and angry, brokern and wounded grandmother who had a back alley abortion in the 1940's I can tell you personally from experience that abortion for any reason has extremely devasting and long lasting effects on the women (and men) who embrace them as an "answer". They never understand or count the costs — the scars, regret, guilt, shame, pain, mental torture and even physical ailments run deep, very deep…awe but the love of Jesus and Jesus alone restores! I suggest we all re-read Exodus and then visit Haggai today. God gives us every answer to every question, to every problem via His word. It is His love letter to us and no matter how bleak it looks — remember your identity is in Christ and the truth is WE WIN. Praise God!
Thanks Hope. Well put. I agree 100%.
I hope many more will read this and pick up the bible and read what you have suggested.
Praise Be to God!!!!
As a liberal feminist, sorely misled by my secular education, I honestly hope that abortion is never made illegal again. Unfortunately, I think there is a possibility, depending on the leadership, that women will once again have freedom over their own bodies taken away and dictated by MEN in power.
I don't advocate abortion. Far from it. I certainly advocate adoption, as well as raising the child when possible. Women KNOW how to end an unwanted pregnancy. There were girls I went to high school with who would take certain medications, go horseback riding, or even throw themselves down a flight of stairs to avoid an unwanted child. When abortion was illegal, like back in the 1940s when your grandmother got a back alley abortion, women still sought out "doctors" who would help rid their bodies of that unwanted child. Many women died as a result of these unhygienic, crudely performed procedures, and the ones who didn't die of infections or a punctured uterus were still left with horrible scars and emotional injuries as a result of attitudes towards abortion, towards a woman's "place" as wife, mother, and saint, and as a result of breaking the law.
I used to be pro-life. I understand the reasoning behind being pro-life. At some point, however, I realized that, if I were in some of these women's situations, I myself could not guarantee that I would not at least be TEMPTED to have an abortion myself. At that point I realized that I could not judge women for making that decision, and that it is not always a selfish or uneducated decision.
I believe that if we allow the government to tell us what we can do with our bodies, it is crossing a serious boundary. If we allow the government to tell women what they can and cannot do inside their uterus, we are simply paving the way for them to control our bodies in other ways, like by telling us what we can and cannot eat, or what surgical procedures we can and cannot have, based mainly on a religiously-based belief. I would rather not take that step in that direction.
ok…. so let's kill the baby so the mother want be inconvenienced with an unwanted pregnancy.
I can't even comprehend your line of thinking. It's just foreign to me. Just because a woman has no respect for life and would try to find ways to end her pregnancy means abortion should be legal? Why is the woman's convenience more important than a child's life?
I hardly think that a woman seeking an abortion has "no respect for life." She just has more respect for her life, an established life with personality, goals, dreams, experiences, relationships, than for the unestablished life. Why do YOU believe the child's life, one which hasn't even begun, doesn't have memories or relationships or goals and dreams, is more important than the mothers? It's simply a matter of priorities. You, along with many others, believe the potential life is more important to save, and I, also along with many others, believe the established one is more important.
I suppose part of my problem with the pro-life stance is that so many people that claim to be "pro-life" are really just "pro-birth." They encourage all these women with unwanted pregnancies to carry them to term and give them up for adoption, but when they themselves face fertility issues, their first instinct is to have fertility treatment, not adopt one of those children they so encouraged to be born. Or when the mother has the child and tries to raise it, despite being single and on limited income, many of the same people who claim to be "pro-life" do not support that mother receiving government assistance. And when war comes, the same people that call themselves "pro-life" will send that child off to fight someone else's battles, putting their life in danger. And if that child commits a crime, those same people will ask for him to be put to death. Very "pro-LIFE" if you look at it. You want that child to be born, but once that decision is done, you really don't have much concern for what happens after.
As a woman who has had an abortion, I can honestly say that Jessie means well but has no clue on what a woman needs or wants and does not speak for the majority of women. I have spoken to women like myself who in their later years regret their decision to have an abortion and isuffer in silence because their family members are not aware that they have had abortions . There are women who fell for the feminist mantra that the "baby" was only a blob and there would be no reason to feel guilty afterwards, after all it was only a "fetus." For some of these women, the baby was the only chance they had to have a family due to the years it took to finally attain dream careers but were too old to conceive. Other women lost their children to accidents or to diseases and could not or would not give birth to other children. In my case, I lost my seven year old child to leukemia and I have not been able to conceive after having an abortion two years before. Young girls and women must be told the truth that having an abortion is not the easy way out of a pregnancy. There are always consequences to having sex without proper protection but abortion should not be on the list. The big drug companies can easily make birth control for women that would be easier to take and less harmful on their bodies, but it seems that the companies are more geared toward helping men with Erectile Dysfunction. One of the solution to help alleviate or lessen abortions would be teaching young girls about their spirituality, self-worth and the fact that they are special to God and to themselves. 1766
I totally agree that we need to pursue better birth control options, as well as better sexual education. I think this would go a long way towards reducing the number of unplanned pregnancies and abortions. It has been proven to work in many European countries. Our current system of education simply does not work toward that goal. Unfortunately, many of the same people who are against abortion are also against better education, and they are currently in control of our sex-ed programs.
Never did I claim that women who have abortions don't experience pain or guilt over their decisions, or wonder where their life might have gone if they had made different choices. Just because something is painful does not make it wrong, and I would like to think that each of these women has learned something valuable from the experience. I think many women also decided not to have abortions because of guilt or social pressure, and face the same kinds of pain, regret, and wondering where their life would be.
I am not condoning abortion by being pro-choice, as some seem to believe. And as a woman, I do believe I know a little bit about what women want/need, as least as far as I'm concerned. I don't believe abortion is "the easy way out," nor do I think it's the best choice for every woman. But is A choice, and one I believe should be available, just in case. I mean, what about pregnancies resulting from rape or incest? Should those women have the option of terminating that pregnancy, or would you force them to carry it in their body for 9 months?
Obama and his left wing cronies continue to bash America, while insisting that he is the messiah who will restore our country to it's former greatness … and restore our status with the international community … however, the international community continues to hold back aid to hungry and under privileged countries, while America continues to give much more foreign aid than other countries … even the oil rich countries … see the stats at: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,403182,00.htm…
I am 29 years old and feel like an outcast sometimes because I live in a world where what once was bad is now good and what once was good is now bad. I just dont get it. If I believe in Jesus Christ I am considered ignorant in some groups. But Why? These people who claim to be of superior intelligence have no real answers to their existence or purpose in life. Just a bunch of scientific mumbo jumbo that leads to one place. A dead end. So they have "Faith" that they are right. Funny isn't it? I feel like it's ok to be anything BUT a Christian these days. No attacks on any other religious holidays. Just Christian ones. I feel like Christianity is being systematically removed from the earth, while most Christians just stand idly by. I feel like I am witnessing first hand what my great grandparents told me would happen one day. Does anyone else see this? I wish Christians all over the world would stand up together and stop what is happening to our nation and world. We've got the numbers. And we've got the faith. I even created a free website called webprayerbook.com in an effort to get christians from around the world to show their faith in God and each other. A Place that people can post prayers for themselves and others and respond to others in need with inspiration or advice. So far I only have a few postings, but I am hoping to help millions of people through faith and prayer. Christians need to join together globally. Not just from community to community. My opinion is that we are engaged in a silent and invisible war. Time to stand up and fight for what we know is right. Am I crazy for feeling these things? Thanks for reading, Shea
First, I would like to thank our Heavenly Father for His plan of a Christian nation just like He did for Isreal. As we have read in the bible, just because God set His heart on Isreal as His people and provided them with an abundance of blessings, dosen't mean it will be appreciated and respected. Obama is right in his comments regarding America. As of today, I wouldn't call this a christian nation. We have more crime, pollution, greed, immoral ways, porn, prostitution, murder, child abuse, etc. than all the others who are of a different religion, who don't serve Jesus! We have removed God from our schools, trying to get Him removed from law, business, etc., by "citizens" of America, not foreigners who dwell here! It's a shame that we have the audacity to even consider gay marriage or removing "under God" from our Pledge of Allegiance. America is a melting pot for all these religions just like early Christendom. You start letting pagans have their say and "fairness" in it and thats what happens. Christians are supposed to be one church, yet in Christianity we have all these sects which don't make sense! There are a lot of wolves in sheep clothings like the pope, who changes God's law to fit their tradition. It's ridiculous to say we are a "christian nation" and we kill babies because we don't wantt to own up to our responsibilities, our judicial system overrides the desire of the people because they get paid under the table, and our so-called religious leaders are the ones molesting and abusing children. Ask yourself if this is really what God intended for His people? Does this nation add up to the Lord's standards? That's what being a "christian" is all about, following Christ! Yes, we all fall short and will make mistakes, but the scene that I see unfolding goes beyond that. We were fortold through God's word that this will happen and so it shall!
I love the blatant ignorance of history in this blog. Maybe if you did a little reading of history and not just scripture you would know that the United States of America is not, and was not founded as a christian nation. How about consulting the words of the people who actually FOUNDED the country, not a few supreme court justices. The founding fathers warned about labeling America as a christian nation, warned the dangers of any religious sect taking control in the executive branch. They founded a country of ALL religions with no national religion. Your idea of America is the antithesis to the ideology in which it was founded. To think of America as a christian nation is to be Unamerican.
Matt, wow… I guess the only way to respond to your post is by showing you what the founding fathers actually said….
"The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.” – John Adams, July 4, 1776
“Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"? – John Quincy Adams, 1837 4th of July Speech
"We've staked the future on our ability to follow the 10 Commandments with all our heart." – James Madison
There are hundreds of such quotes from our founding fathers. I'll let you do some research and find out what else they said.
I went to Washington DC college to study medicine and got very ill and was told by Doctors my condition was incurable…too sick to work i became homeless for ten years. I drifted up and down the east coast of USA preaching Christ..sleeping outside and in homeless shelters.
After ten years had gone by God and christ resurrected me from hell. I have a home to live in and a wife and medicine. Today i go to church, but really feel "out of place".
I am old now, 63 years old. I am a Christian socialist because i hate the love of money. It is the love of money that i feel separates many people from the "love of God". The love of money is a major problem for Christians in the USA.
Back to the topic, i feel that we need another political party in the govenment, a party that believes in Christ, not making apoligies for it's belief but representing Christians in the USA and prehaps around the world.
I'm late to the party but I have to support Jeff White. I have a database of hundreds of Christian founding quotes and though it can be argued some if not all the founders were hypocrites in relation to their Christian faith and understanding (aren't we all, eh?), the were decidedly Christians. In a letter to Thomas Jefferson, John Adams reminded him who were there that day with the founding of the country. Adams goes on to list all the various denominations that were represented from Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, House Protestants, Baptists etc. and then he ended with this "atheists, Deists, and Protestants who believed nothing … very few of the latter species" were represented.
Now it's difficult for me to believe that Christian men would so fear their own religion that they would create some kind of hyper-secular state as claimed by militant atheists and secular who have long ground axes against the founding religion of this country. As it was, the American founders did a pretty good job of keeping Congress (or any other quasi-legislative branch of government like our present activist Supreme Court which all too often legislates from the bench) from having the means to establish an official national church while at the same time guaranteeing that free religious expression throughout the breadth of our nation, including its public institutions, would not be infringed.
A literal reading of the First Amendment creates an understanding that Thomas Jeffersons singular missive about "a strict wall of separation of church and state" in his 1802 Danbury Baptist letter (yes, he was the ONLY American founder he made any such statement or variation of that statement) was itself a bad rendering of the First Amendment. The First Amendment only creates a separation between Congress and religion in that Congress cannot pass any law respecting an establishment of religion. That is, Congress can't pass a law creating an official national religion neither can it pass a law providing a means to pay the clergy of a particular denomination/religion in preference to any others. All faiths would have equal standing before government. But also bear in mind Congress, hence the federal government, could neither hinder nor help any church, mosque or synagogue by paying their clergy out of the government's largesse.
During the founding period, an "establishment of religion" was understood in a very narrow sense. "Establishment of religion" or "religious establishment" was simply a church, as in a "drinking establishment" was a pub. Second, in a more technical and legal view, the Christian founders believed government was not supposed to be involved in an "establishment of religion" by supporting its clergy with public tax dollars as was happening in England with the Church of England. This would indeed create an egregious entanglement between church and state.
But hyper-seculars today have gone way beyond the original intent of the American founders and are using Jefferson's personal opinion as a club to beat Christianity over the head and supplanting it with their own irreligious religion of liberal secularism, the latest version of secular humanism. Hyper-seculars merely supplant one religious philosophy with another, theirs, thus running afoul of their own overly broad interpretation of separation of state and religion. A certain irony there, of course.
BTW, I am getting really tired of hearing pro-abortion advocates obfuscating by using the fig leaf of them being "pro-choice". Euphemisms aside, I rarely find a pro-choice/pro-abortion advocate who is pro-school choice, or pro-social security choice, pro-gun choice, etc. About the only thing they are pro-choice about is being pro-abortion … hence, in my view, they are simply pro-abortion. I think a little intellectual honesty is due from the pro-abortion ranks.
I am a Christian Asian immigrant woman in my 30s. Though all or most of us on this website are Christians, I believe the rest of our views and interpretations even of Christianity and the Bible are formed by our life experiences, culture and ethnicities. I just wanted to post on few of the topics addressed by this website.
1.The whole Obama “Slavery in the Bible” issue.
I come from a country which was colonized by Europeans. Though it is not the same as having ancestors who were slaves, I can relate how that can make someone question slavery in the bible. I was 15 when I first questioned this. I could not believe how a benevolent God, the very God that brought out Israelites from slavery in Egypt could give instructions on how to treat slaves. I would have thought He forbade slavery. I must add I never questioned things like the sacrifice of Isaac, the story of Job etc which other people normally question. These made perfect sense to me. My pastor in my native country who was very wise gave me this answer. He said that these rules were given by God to govern the Israelites in their day to day life. He said some rules are relevant today and some are not and some are cultural. Like the rule about pork being unclean in Deuteronomy. It is universal among the people of Israel, Muslims and some countries in Asia while pork as a food is popular in Europe which has been Christian for centuries and consequently countries like Australia and America with a European ancestry. Also the issue of sacrifices in the Old Testament and how Jesus made it unnecessary because of His personal sacrifice for us on the cross. He told me that we needed to look at slavery in the Bible from that context and not relate to what we know today. That does not make parts of the Bible irrelevant, but it also means that parts of the Bible were applicable to different times. He told me to remember that the Bible was not written continuously by one person and is comprised of books and letters. He also told me a little of how the Bible came to be adopted as a Holy Book and the History behind it. He also said what makes things like the ‘Ten Commandments’ timeless is that they are just that. Timeless. He also said sometimes many meanings are lost while translating the bible from Greek to a native tongue which may not have the adequate vocabulary to express what the original author intended. He gave me the often used example of the three forms of love in Ancient Greek. I must mention that this pastor speaks English well, but opts to preach and speak in his native tongue. He also learnt Greek and read the Bible in Greek. I hope I was able to communicate what he said in my native tongue properly while translating it into English without losing the essence of it and I hope I remembered it right. I do not expect anyone to agree with me, but I wanted to give a different point of view.
2.“Is America a Christian Country? ” –
For me America is a secular country and I say so because it has no official state religion. All Islamic countries to my knowledge are so called because their official religion is Islam. There is no official Hindu country, not even India where 80% of the population is Hindu because there is no official religion. Nepal was the only official Hindu country before they adopted democracy. I grew up among Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists as well as Christians. We went to school together, in my case a private Christian school, celebrated each other’s festivals though not worshipping each others Gods, went to each other’s weddings even though we were not of the same religion and some of us are even friends up to this day. All this has taught me that decent and devout people exist in all religions. Hinduism and Islam are some of the hardest religions to follow in that they are very ritualistic. I have seen devout Muslims pray 5 times a day and do not ever drink. I have also seen Hindus prostrate on the ground before the deity, the more extreme versions include fire walking, pulling little chariots tied to hooks attached to their bodies, handling fire with their bare hands etc. Both religions practice corporal mortification among some sects and all three religions fast and pray a lot. A lot more than many Christians do certainly. Growing up, I used to feel guilty if I skipped daily prayers because my mother constantly reminded me of how easy I had it because I was a Christian when it came to prayer. Most Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists I know are decent, certainly more devout when it comes to strict observance of their respective religions than me and many Christians I know. I am always thus grateful and cognizant of the fact that I am saved and privileged to be a Christian only because of God’s grace. Pres.Elect.Obama grew up in Hawaii and Indonesia and has family who are Buddhist like his half-sister and a step father, father and siblings who are Muslims and friends of other religions, if not now, certainly growing up. Thus he has learnt like I have that one can be a devout Christian and yet have family, immediate family and friends who are decent belonging to other religions. So his view of America as a secular country which is a collection of people of all religions even though it was founded by Christian men could be based on this as is mine.
3.Finally, I want to address why Barack Obama the person is so attractive to so many people. My first introduction to him was in 2004 in the DNC. He was smart, articulate and seemed well read. But more than that I felt a personal connection with him though I have never met him. It is simple. It is because of his story. It is not just an African –American story. Just look at his immediate and extended family. His mother is white and his father is a Muslim immigrant from Africa. He was brought up by a single mother and then his white grand-parents. His step father is a Muslim from Indonesia. His sister Maya on his mother’s side is Buddhist and she is married to a Chinese-Canadian, his sister on his father’s side, a Kenyan was married to a white English man and lives in England. He has other siblings who are Kenyans are Muslims. His wife and her family are African-American Christians with roots in the mid west. He himself is Christian. He was brought up in places with diverse ethnic populations. It does not get more global than this. Now depending on your point of view, this story can either send a shudder through you or make you feel very global. The main story of his election is the first African-American man into the Presidency of America. But the sub-story here is that many other people who are non-African-Americans also owned his story and saw themselves in him. People like immigrants in America and internationally who like to see their children born in their adopted homelands succeed like him, non-Christians and people in other parts of the world. Politics at its simplest is after all a personal connection to another person. Issues matter, but if there is no connection with some element of the candidate’s or the party’s history, there would be no vote. I have been told historically more African Americans voted democratic even though no African American politician headed the party because of civil rights. That is why even conservative columnists could not figure out why Gov. Palin was a super star to working class people even though they considered her an intellectual light weight and made fun of her accent and mannerisms. Older Vietnamese Americans voted en masse for Sen. McCain. I hate to simplify this too much, but I believe more Hispanics voted twice for Pres. Bush personally and not for the Republican Party because of a personal connection. He could speak Spanish and his extended family included people of Hispanic origin like his sister-in-law, Gov. Jeb Bush’s wife. Pres.Bush was also a successful Gov.Bush of a state with a large Hispanic population. And that is why they did not vote for the Republican Party this time en masse. Because there was a more personal connection with Pres.Elect.Obama than Sen. McCain/Gov.Palin and because in electing him, all people of color break that barrier with him and not just African Americans. Europe I believe loves him so much because they saw something they aspire to in his election. That maybe in their countries someday, electing a person of color would become just as routine as the women they elect in highest office right now.
Obviously, I do not presume to speak for immigrants, Asians or Hispanics and certainly not for Pres.Elect.Obama. But I thought I could give a different perspective here. I was brought up to believe that Jesus taught us to include all types of people among friends and family as he did. Jesus included marginalized people like lepers, prostitutes, fishermen, Samarians who could be considered at the “lower caste” people of their time, women like Mary and Martha who were second class citizens in a patriarchal society etc. I was taught that we must pray for their salvation and preach the Gospel to them, but ultimately it is their choice. And the only difference between the saved and unsaved is not anything we did, but pure Grace given by God.
Christians may want to learn how to attract rather than promote. Promotion is their downfall. When you try to MAKE others believers through passing laws there will always be resistance. Christ spoke of love and tolerance. He hated the hypocritical church and it's leaders. Catholic priests (hypocrites), Tedd Haggard (hypocrite) etc. Clean your own house before worrying about the end of the USA. You don't like abortions, don't have one. You don't believe gay marriage is a good thing, don't get married if you're gay. The greatest thing about the United States of America is that we are all free to worship or not worship. Christians do not seem to be ok with people wanting to live differently or non-christian lives. This is what causes wars. Anytime a person is sure they are right, 100% sure….run. Christians in the USA should be grateful for the opportunity to worship freely and stop being so angry about others who don't believe what they believe. Just my two cents.
Oh and I'm proud to be an Obama supporter who chooses not to live in fear like many christians these days. Peace.
I would just like to say that I am rightly scared for our country and our people. Our nation has a common ideal on principles and values, or at least we did. These principles and values were not just determined by our founding fathers, they were a creed brought about by a much higher authority, hence all the referrals to God in the declaration of independence. The current state of our country is in a downward spiral towards civil war. Just read the posts in this dialogue. Nobody can agree on anything. The only thing everybody CAN agree on is that Obama is not a christian, yet is constantly talking about religion. Past presidents left the religion aspect alone, (well for the most part). Most presidents who brought up religion, just issued the traditional aspects of the U.S.A. and it's religious backbone. Obama cannot seem to stay away from the religious views in his everyday talk. This can mean only one thing. Obama has a religious agenda and it does not involve christians, this is the scariest part. Change may be necessary, but not extreme liberation. Everybody can agree that the founding fathers were brilliant and we can all thank them today. Everybody can also agree that we are skewed away from our founding fathers ideals today. So why the hell can't everybody agree that we need to focus on our roots and steer our nation in that general direction? Obama wants to befriend the muslims and forbid calling the git-mo detainees terrorists, well actually he wants to release them all, and yet these people refer to americans and christians as satan. How can this make sense?
I am a Christian from India and come from a Hindu family. In my journey to following the One true God through Lord Jesus, I have learnt this lesson time and again. I cannot with any force of argument change any heart, however good my intentions for my family members and coworkers. That is the work of the Holy Spirit.
But I do want to share that the I have witnessed Gospel shared in love and through long suffering, self-control, kindness and other fruits of the spirit; through a life shared in compassion and in joys and sorrows of other beautiful people who do not agree with me on faith (Hindus, Muslims and others). I have seen my family come to accept Christ over a period of 4-5 years.
I also do agree that many who call us Christians as hypocrites have a good reason to do so. Somewhere down the line, we do tend to follow "Christianity rather than Christ" and are judgmental on those who disagree, and often condescending & ridiculing.
As for Obama and the debate about America being Christian nation or not – well, does that even matter? If our faith in Christ can move mountains, it can certainly bring about miracles and change hearts. So, what do we as Christians have to worry about? Why this insecurity?
Personally, I see more Christlike character in Obama in what he does and how he relates to people than some other so called Christian presidents in the U.S. who have appeared more stiff necked and terrible witnesses of our Lord in the world outside.
The United States will always be a historically Christian nation. That is undeniable. One need only read history. The founders held to Christian values and realized that without those values, civil society would be impossible.
The United States, to remain the United States, will always be to have the teachings of Christ as foundational values. The United States has become as Jewish nation, and a Buddhist nation and an Hindu nation because of the tolerance spawned by Jesus teaching that we should "love our enemies." While people of other belief are not necessarily the enemies of Christians or Christ, their beliefs are at variance. Nevertheless, the Christian exercises tolerance because of his/her love for others. That is why now, The United States is still a Christian nation, and a Jewish nation, a Buddhist nation, Hindu nation and yes, even a Muslim nation.
A president that claims to be a Christian but does not follow Christian beliefs ? And I do believe you know what I am talking about. (If you study your Bible, you do). Sounds to me like he needs to be saved….The president is a super star because people are so desperate for a change. Do you know what happens when desperation takes over? You get way more than what you bargained for. I personally am not too worried about our country. Everything is falling into place as the scripture says. There is really nothing we can do but keep our faith and continue into the next round until Christ comes back. We will endure plenty, but that will only make us or break us. So don't worry. Keep praising Him. Don't lose your faith. Be strong. That's what He needs from us. Look at what His Son endured for us….
The Bible says be careful that you are not decieved. Obama is just a man with his own agenda. When Christ comes, you will not have to ask questions. There will be no doubt who the Messiah is. So just pay attention and pray. The person that comes from God will have power. Not man made power, but God's power. I think if Obama had any power, his health care bill would be passed already. So don't expect anything different unless you see something other than what we have already seen. The Bible says: Take heed that no one decieves you-Matthew 24:4. Thank you.
America is still a Christian nation, and Obama's speech gets worse. He goes on to mock several parts of the Bible.
America contains many religions, not one, it was never a Christian nation, the constitution does not mention Christianity, whether our founders were Christians or not, they gave us religious freedom. The thing is with our founders, it's just like parents, my mother is Roman Catholic, that does not make me Roman Catholic, I'm irreligious, our founders may have been Christian, we are not. We are a nation of every kind of religion, a nation that is supposed to hold no bias. If Yahweh is true then I'm sure he won't send you to an underworld barbecue for eternity because of the decisions of others.
No correction the constitution or "Law of the Land" clearly states that God and politics remain separate. It's called the 1st Amendment, maybe you remember this from first grade history.
America has and never will be a Christian nation. The founding fathers were not Christians, but deist. Thomas Jefferson created his own Bible by taking out the miracles and deity of Christ. It is amazing to me how so many Christians are jumping on the their political parties, instead of giving their priority to Christ. Hey Christians, get a life. It's time that we become more concerned about the needs around us, and how Christ has called us to be his beacon and light, and less concerned about politics. You want to change this country, go out and serve like Christ did.
America most certainly was a Christian nation, any heathen that chooses not to believe that has to shield himself from any serious study of American history. A solid 2/3 of the founding fathers involved with ratifying the Constitution were Christian.
The supreme court itself ruled in the late part of the 1800's that America is a Christian nation, and did it more than once. The schools have dumbed the people down to the point where they are controllable.
But I see this as a good thing also. This means that Christians who really have something built in them, have to do their homework, and KNOW the truth, and KNOW how fargone things have gotten.
Anytime I stand up for my faith, I am challenged, whether by revisionist historians or just hateful people. Every kind of fact is brought to the table.
We realize Obama heralds the end of the republic. A rudimentary study of what B. Franklin said and what Obama has done, coupled with the natural, spiritual and financial disasters, should be enough even for unbelievers to see.
I personally believe we are in the days of Joel and the Lord is pruning a true army of followers. Many cold and lukewarm have abandoned the faith in America… and only the strong remain. You build an army out of the strong. By strong I mean, those with testimonies, those that would be incapable of escaping the conviction upon them by the Lord to believe.
How else will we be able to rule the world as it will be in the coming thousand year reign of Christ, if we aren't first trained in those ways?
We are living in an age of "Anti-Christ" and fortunately for most of us we are living in the Age of Grace…….come quickly Lord Jesus!
I think were missing the point here, Romans 13 tells us in context that we should do the best we can to reign morality and have decent laws and vote properly etc etc, but whats out of our control is in Gods control. (the more I live the more I realize that very much is out of my control) The biblical balance is that we have a responsibility to glorify God in our lives, but the same bible says that God even ordains how the dice will fall in games of chance. That tension shows me that we have a responsibility, but the outcome is up to God. The gospel isnt focused on politics whatsoever. The gospel is not mainly to spread laws and ideologies that arent necessarily the focus of the gospel. That is fine, but its not our main focus.
This country did great things, and it was founded on Christian based ethics, but I will admit most of the fathers were diests, they believed christian ethics were great for a country, but most of them had no relationship with Christ from what ive read. So, I gather form this that God used them to lay a foundation, we had the great awakening and preachers like Jonathan Edwards helped show them christianity produced results.
The point is we have this freedom to worship God, and to share with the world, and to be examples of christ, but were making it all about side issues.
Obama is now the president of the United States of America, what is he doing right now? Are there actions that are against us? For our Brethren in the US, be not affected by what your leaders are saying, listen to our true leader, the God that we are worshiping!
Do you really believe that we should throw away the greatest gift God bestowed on us? "free will" is the gift I speak of and apparently a gift you have no regard for. Do you really think our government or any government for that matter has the right to take that from us? We "Americans" chastise and confront other nations for taking away their citizen's rights while at the same we happily hand ours over to our government so we can avoid responsibility for our own actions and thoughts. As Christians should we not already know right from wrong without some stranger telling us so? Have we become so lax in our lives and spirituality that we require someone else to tell us what is right or wrong? As for the "blind followers" let them be, they also have received the gift of free will and what right do we to revoke God's gift? We spend so much of our lives "pretending" to be Christians instead of "being" Christians.
I am 100 percent christian and i truly believe in the scriptures, there must be an END time and there must be a BETRAYER. Please God help us. Amen
Are you sure that America had been never a christian Nation? Maybe you have to be mold by your faith and I just out that St. Rose Lima is the patroness of America and St. Isaac Jogues was the patron of north America. How can you say that it was never a Christian Nation? Why do like to see GOD the Father? What will you tell Him if you did saw Him and told you even though that you don't believe in HIM, He will always tell you, how much HE loves you….